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10-15-20 05:15PM |
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curlingclips
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Registered: Oct 2019
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Front ends whose input are most respected by their skips
Who are some notable front-enders who are notable for having their input respected by their skips?
I noticed first mostly from observations and eventually confirmed by occasional commentator remarks that Brent Laing, for example, is one such person. I'm a new fan, so I know very little of his era with Howard, so most of my observations is from his Koe and then Epping days.
Later I learned that he actually started with Koe as vice skip second thrower in 2014-2015 (i.e. throws stone #3 and #4 of the end, in charge of house for stone #7 and #8). This discovery made perfect sense to me, because I had already deduced that Koe respects Laing's input even after Kennedy replaced Laing as the vice skip.
Another name in this category is perhaps Don Bartlett. He mentioned in an interview with Curling Legends/Kevin Palmer that as notoriously controlling as Kevin Martin was, he respects Bartlett's input, in the very rare occasions that he offered them. One example was discussed where Bartlett suggested moving the broom (i.e. less/more "ice"), and he turned out to be correct. (I don't recall if he ever said that he once successfully challenged the actual call; that may be an impossible task, even for him, given what I know of Kevin's reputation. Full disclosure: I've never actually watched a full Kevin Martin game, ever, so I could very well have a distorted view of their team dynamics).
Anyway, hopefully you get the gist of what I'm looking for. Yes, of course a team can't function unless everyone respects everyone else, but were there notably special front-enders in this category?
Last edited by curlingclips on 10-15-20 at 08:24PM
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10-15-20 09:15PM |
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curlingclips
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Let's expand this category to include alternates. Also, I should clarify that front-enders in this context are the curlers throwing stones #1, #2, #3, #4, which are neither skip nor vice skip.
With this expansion, I should add Scott Pfeifer from my observations of his time with Team Koe during time outs. His best contribution I've found is when he showed Koe how to score 3 in 6th end of 2017 Brier final vs Gushue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCDRvoc2ALk
I can't think of many teams that bring out their alternates (as opposed to coaches) during time outs. The only notable one I can think of is Marisa Winkelhausen for Team Tirinzoni, but I don't speak German, so I can't assess the extent of her contribution, but I've noticed that she does talk a lot and they do tend to listen to her during time outs.
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10-16-20 08:14PM |
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nelski
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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Twin Snowbanks
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quote: Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
But barring unexpected circumstances - keep in mind One woman would be around 34 when this occurs and another 30. That woman, herself would be nearing 30 while Firstname would be around 43, Lastname around 40.
Please start citing the ages of the players on your op-eds about mens' teams too, at least as much as you do the women athletes. I sense a drastic imbalance in your reporting.
note: read up to your piece on the Fry's, Olsen, Pickering etc. How old were those athletes?
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Lots of major youth (<21) events. Nice for Murdoch... and us :-D.
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10-16-20 08:47PM |
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nelski
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quote: Originally posted by Manitoba Legend I really don't know what age has to do with curling prowess.
Yes. That is my point. If you insist on presenting age - keep it balanced though. Interesting age range. 22-60 in the winning bracket.
I am interested in the Cargill Classic in Morris this weekend. There are lots of fresh-outta-juniors teams entered. The new wave has hit the big time, in Manitoba.
sorry for hijacking your thread clips... can't think of any leads who offered a lot. But I can see Hebert standing constantly, arms crossed and pouting, as if his opinion mattered a lot.
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Lots of major youth (<21) events. Nice for Murdoch... and us :-D.
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10-16-20 09:40PM |
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curlingclips
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quote: Originally posted by nelski
can't think of any leads who offered a lot.
I should clarify that loudness/talkativeness does not imply elevated level of respect. In fact, sometimes I hear the opposite: some very special leads are quiet and keep their mouths shut, but they are so respected such that on the very rare occasions that they're saying something, everyone listens to them.
So if there's a lead that only said 10 words in an entire season, but those 10 words proved to be extremely valuable input for the skip in terms of strategy/tactics, that lead belongs in this category.
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10-16-20 10:03PM |
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nelski
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Well, I think we have to include Nancy Delahunt of the infamous Team Jones NS. It may have been more of a chemistry role than a strategy role, but she definitely provided leadership to that team. She threw first, but in later seasons, ended up in the house holding the broom as vice for the fourth thrower, Possibly because of the fiery 3rd/skip relationship between Kelly and Jones but probably because of what she had to offer.
5 Scott Hearts championships. 2 World golds and 1 silver.
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Lots of major youth (<21) events. Nice for Murdoch... and us :-D.
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10-16-20 10:24PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
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quote: Originally posted by curlingclips
I should clarify that loudness/talkativeness does not imply elevated level of respect. In fact, sometimes I hear the opposite: some very special leads are quiet and keep their mouths shut, but they are so respected such that on the very rare occasions that they're saying something, everyone listens to them.
So if there's a lead that only said 10 words in an entire season, but those 10 words proved to be extremely valuable input for the skip in terms of strategy/tactics, that lead belongs in this category.
Agree Hebert way to chatty from the far end for a guy that threw 95% out turn guards. Funny TSN just showed earlier tonight where Gushue beat Koe in NL Brier final. If you watched, how many times did the team yell at Benny for early sweeping and ruining the shot. I counted 10. Koe counts them in his sleep. Don't make me regale the story of the world's in .Moncton again from years past.
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10-20-20 01:22AM |
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curlingclips
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Registered: Oct 2019
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I don't know enough about curling strategy to be able to form an informed opinion on this for sure, but 2 Girls and a Game believed that in 2018 Women's World final, CAN dropped a 3-ender to SWE primarily because they followed Jill Officer's advice to hit the stones in the house instead of peeling the corner guard ("an amateur move"/"strategy booboo" according to them).
https://2girlsandagame.libsyn.com/w...rling-interview
"Discussions about Jill's retirement and leaving the game at the top of the world, Jennifer's ability to be on her game for all the biggest moments, and how even the best teams make strategy errors (there's hope for us all!)."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7UX7MQEyzY&t=1h00m40s
But back on topic, at one of the games at Banff, Bottcher and Moulding summoned Brad "Angleman" Thiessen into the house to analyze the angles. This is the first time I've heard them refer to Brad as such, but it does seem to imply that they really respect Brad's ability to read angles.
Last edited by curlingclips on 10-20-20 at 11:52AM
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11-05-20 05:53PM |
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curlingclips
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Registered: Oct 2019
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This isn't my own observation, but Brendan Bottcher asked Casey Scheidegger in MQFT about Kristie Moore's role in her team.
https://www.curling.ca/blog/2018/01...ey-scheidegger/
quote: Q: All right, now the last question comes in from Brendan Bottcher, and as you know, Brendan is a very thoughtful guy, so his question is a little bit more serious than the ones I’m used to getting. He said he was very curious to hear your answer, and it is a great question, so let’s get to it. He asks, “Having a lead who plays a major role in strategy and experience must be difficult, but also a huge asset. How do you make it work?”
A: Wow, that is a serious question. Well, first I will agree with Brendan and say that it is definitely a huge asset. Kristie (Moore) has the experience of being on an Olympic team, being on championship teams, that she is a real calming force for us. She’s someone I’ve looked to in huge games—like a provincial final—for affirmation that I’m doing the right thing, and it’s made my job as a skip that much easier.
[...]
It is a balancing act, I think, and in the past, I’ve definitely tended to have less input from the lead when it comes to strategy discussion. Not that I’ve played with anyone who didn’t have meaningful things to say, but you never want too many cooks in the kitchen. And to answer Brendan’s question about strategy, I honestly haven’t found Kristie’s input difficult to handle, because she is very good at knowing when to interject and when not to. I haven’t really found myself thinking, “okay, I need you to be quiet now.” [laughs] She has a knack for knowing exactly when I want to hear from her, and it’s been so good for our team.
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11-06-20 06:02PM |
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guido
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
I know of one team that input from their second will become detrimental. I just finished watching Team Koe. One of the teams to have trouble with the clock. Well now you have Johnny Mo in the house discussing his shots with Koe, then BJ’s and then Koe’s. 6/8 rocks needing Morris’s input???? I guess he must not think Koe knows the game.
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