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10-16-15 04:02PM |
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Bows
Knee-Slider
Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Ptbo
Posts: 3 |
The EQ+ head is not the one people are talking about! That is just the regular new material on that BP Lite Speed broom! it's a different head that I am sure is not for sale yet.
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10-16-15 04:35PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote: Originally posted by Bows
The EQ+ head is not the one people are talking about! That is just the regular new material on that BP Lite Speed broom! it's a different head that I am sure is not for sale yet.
You are correct sir. It is a specific head Balance Plus made purely to prove a point. No intentions of selling them, and they claim they've recalled them from the teams that had them.
__________________
Recreational curler & resident armchair curler at Windy City Curling Club.
Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.
http://www.nerdcurl.com
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10-16-15 04:37PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
Balance Plus fires back with a press release of their own:
http://www.balanceplus.com/press101615.htm
So, Balance Plus claims that they released the "blackhead" pads to stay competitive with other teams also using "directional" pads.
They don't say it outright, but clearly imply Hardline IcePads in their statement. They also clearly are referring to Brad Gushue in regards to the "one sweeper" remarks.
Hardline says their IcePads don't use this fabric and that they're being targeted.
Obviously both parties want to protect their business interests. Hardline also has more to lose here as their whole business is built around the IcePad.
I do know that one thing is for certain, both parties can't be 100% correct here. Their statements contradict one another. Someone, and again I'm not sure who, is either being less-than-truthful or outright lying.
This is getting uglier and uglier.
__________________
Recreational curler & resident armchair curler at Windy City Curling Club.
Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.
http://www.nerdcurl.com
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10-16-15 05:01PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
Yeah, Balance Plus are doing their best to smear Hardline. But if they had an issue with them, why not say something about it previously? Why not the competitive teams? Why do something like this and turn this whole thing into a farce... and lose a great deal of credibility in your argument.
My opinion of BP and those teams have taken a bit hit. Well, I should clarify that I've like BP's equipment, but their customer service has always left a bit a foul taste.
Anyway, if you had an issue with the fabrics being used (and Hardline did run their equipment past Curling Canada... so it's not like they came up with this on their own without running it past the associations), you should have raised it properly.
I find this interesting though:
quote: Other teams admitted to using directional heads/faceplates that gave them a considerable advantage for as much as 1.5 years.
Really? Let's hear from those teams, and we know who they are. If you're going to pull out a comment like this, better make darn sure... and those teams better be able to confirm it.
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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
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10-16-15 05:12PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
The thing is, like i said i get that technology changes will happen and equipment changes will happen. but just because they can be made doesnt mean they should.
you shouldnt be able to manipulate the rock as much as these brushes can.
that just takes technique and skill right out of the equation.and then you also have to consider that if they are able to affect the path of a rock so severely then they are obviously having an impact on the ice.
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10-16-15 05:14PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote: Originally posted by Phil_D
New column from Don Landry, including video of the Balance Plus "Blackhead" pads in action:
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/e...-174550399.html
This line from the article really stuck out to me:
"The Blackhead broom heads, which BalancePlus claims were crafted in order to prove a point about how far curling technology can go and were never going to get to market..."
So Balance Plus makes a broom head that they know will cause an uproar, just to "prove a point." In the aftermath, Hardline gets roped in with the new Balance Plus head. Coincidence?
I'm really trying to stay objective here, but it's getting harder and harder to do that. Something definitely doesn't smell right.
yeah, i dont like what they are doing there either.
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10-16-15 05:15PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
Its just really sad that this is what everyone is talking about right now. Its distracting from the game itself
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10-16-15 05:21PM |
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CoachBrewer
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: BrockVegas
Posts: 43 |
quote: Originally posted by RockDoc
I'd like to see video o some of these magical shots but if what is claimed is remotely true it is a vindication of the microscratch theory of curl and manufacturers have figured out how to exploit it. Unfortunately, I predicted in an article I wrote for club members about a year ago that this theory could be used to design new sweeping technology.
LOL. I blame RockDoc for predicting this. Perhaps BP and their sponsored teams read his club member article...
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10-16-15 05:35PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote: Originally posted by misty1
Its just really sad that this is what everyone is talking about right now. Its distracting from the game itself
I agree. It's impossible not to though.
__________________
Recreational curler & resident armchair curler at Windy City Curling Club.
Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.
http://www.nerdcurl.com
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10-16-15 05:49PM |
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mcderm
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2008
Location: guelph
Posts: 21 |
I watched the videos released by BP....looks like illegal sweeping is playing a big part here
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10-16-15 06:29PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote: Originally posted by mcderm
I watched the videos released by BP....looks like illegal sweeping is playing a big part here
Just reading my handy rule book...
You can make a case that's it's a violation of 12 (8)...
(b) The sweeping motion shall not leave debris in front of a moving stone.
(c) The final sweeping motion shall finish outside the path of the stone.
It may be that they just make it clear what these rules mean, in terms of sweeping motion, and if necessary, say that you have to sweep across the path of a moving stone, not in line.
Is it just me, or do these videos make it look more and more that BP and their sponsored teams are just trying to run Hardline out of business, and not trying to make a legitimate case against them?
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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
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10-16-15 06:40PM |
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johnnysmoke
Drawmaster
Registered: Nov 2002
Location:
Posts: 612 |
Bring on teams 22 to 40
So the top 20+ teams agreed to not use these new broom heads?
I'm looking forward to the passing of the torch as they all drop out of the top twenty and the new teams using these heads leave them in the dust.
Go Team Chad Stevens! I'm rootin' for you Team Grant Dezura! Better get your hands on one of these beauties Team Aaron Sluchinski.... and you too Team Aaron Squires!....
Pro curling is on the cusp of a major change in the game.... and it may not be for the better. Time will tell.
Last edited by johnnysmoke on 10-16-15 at 06:47PM
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10-16-15 11:12PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote: Originally posted by CoachBrewer
LOL. I blame RockDoc for predicting this. Perhaps BP and their sponsored teams read his club member article...
I wish. In my article summarizing the Nyberg study, I speculated that brooms might be better designed to polish out ice scratches. I never dreamed a head would be designed to ADD scratches to the ice. The former seems kosher, not the latter. If you sweep with sandpaper you are basically reproducing the Nyberg study. From the videos it looks like the sweeping motion is aligned in the direction you want the stone to go, I.e. laying down guiding scratches. Knowing the Nyberg hypothesis allowed exploitation.
Last edited by RockDoc on 10-17-15 at 12:44AM
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10-17-15 12:21AM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
Story on CBC's "The National" tonight. Forward to about 21:00:
http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/ID/2677212144/
Nothing really new was said by anybody. Just posting in case anyone wanted to see it.
__________________
Recreational curler & resident armchair curler at Windy City Curling Club.
Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.
http://www.nerdcurl.com
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10-18-15 06:01PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
how about another statement from hardline ice pads about what teams were using their "special " brooms the last two years and tell us how they did...
pretty obvious last year they were using corked brooms and had an advantage over the other competitors
mike doesnt qualify in portage btw
Normally I don't try to call out individuals but... buddy, you're full of ****.
Advantage? Well then, why didn't anyone squawk last year? (And as I recall, teams using Hardline brooms were hardly invincible last season.) There are any number of reasons folks are call BULL**** on all of this, and I won't rehash them again.
But hey, feel free to continue to spew your opinion without proper evidence... because it's pretty obvious that if you think something is true it must be.
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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
Last edited by JustAnotherHack on 10-18-15 at 06:05PM
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10-19-15 01:31AM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
I want to make a couple points on this topic.
First, I heard some people argue that we should embrace any technological improvements in equipment. For a sport like curling that is simply not the case. Up until recently, technological improvements haven't severely changed the game. Yes, they've improved one's ability to drag a rock, but they haven't changed what one can do to a rock. If a brush can make a rock fall or make it curl more, that is changing the game in a way I don't believe we want to go. Can anyone disagree with that? I also think it is possible that a broom could get to a point of effectiveness that is too high. What if you only needed to throw a rock halfway and it could be brushed to the button? Is that something we want? If shot-making is reduced to using the brooms to make the rock do whatever is intended, I don't see why anyone would really want to watch curling.
With this in mind, can anyone really argue against the idea of having rules for equipment? If it took these blackheads proving a point to force this issue, who can quibble with that? If it can generally be agreed that this one brush should be outlawed, then it is generally agreed that there is a level of brushing effectiveness that goes beyond where the sport ought to go.
So, if we are agreed that there is a line to be drawn for legitimate equipment, the difficult question to answer is where the line is to be drawn here. To properly answer this, yes, there needs to be independent testing, but that takes time. What is to be done in the meantime? Where the line has been drawn may indeed be unfairly affecting Hardline. I will say one thing about this: In the first slam, Brad Gushue clearly felt he could use the IcePad to make the rock curl more. Now, there may be other ways of preventing this (I've heard this has something to do with how new the pad is), the only point I'm trying to make is that there is at least some belief in the "directional" abilities of the IcePad.
Now, one can question the motivations of the other equipment companies, and I'm sure they all have their own best interests at heart. But, I do believe the players who have signed this agreement simply want to have a level playing field to compete in. Again, who can argue with that?
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10-19-15 02:19AM |
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jcullen
Hitting Paint
Registered: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 170 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
how about another statement from hardline ice pads about what teams were using their "special " brooms the last two years and tell us how they did...
pretty obvious last year they were using corked brooms and had an advantage over the other competitors
mike doesnt qualify in portage btw
Hardline sponsor teams use the same icePad as everyone else, and the one that is for sale to the general public. This has been stated multiple times, and is true. My team has been sponsored by Hardline for 3 seasons, we are friends with all the top teams who use Hardline, and no one has a "corked" broom.
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10-19-15 09:35PM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
So Laycock, another Hardline flagship team, wins the CanadInns with their broom fabric inside out.
Do you think the Balance Plus / Goldline teams will now issue a public statement and a fishy video requesting that for the integrity of the game Hardline teams be asked to play with snowshoes on and that Steve Laycock stopped using the ''directional hair gel'' he uses that give him an unfair advantage?
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10-20-15 12:14PM |
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CoachBrewer
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: BrockVegas
Posts: 43 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
why did you choose hardline for a sponsor ? financial or you thought it was a superior broom ?
"corked " was kind of a pun for better .. which i assume it is
We chose Hardline brooms because we liked the feel and considered them an upgrade over the Balance Plus brooms that we were using previously. We chose the Balance Plus brooms several years ago because we liked the feel and considered them an upgrade over the Brownie brooms we were using previously. And why do you suppose we used the Brownies...? For golf, I tend to upgrade my Drivers once in a while as well. I upgrade my car once in a while, too and don't even get me started on wives (just kidding).
fresca: Isn't that why everyone changes brooms once in a while? Or are you still using a corn broom?
Some of the teams that are throwing around wild allegations of 'cheating' should look at their own sweeping practices. There's been a lot of funky sweeping going on out there this year from teams using all manufacturer's brooms.
And there are other teams whose sweeping practices comply with the intent and integrity of the game.
I remember teams in the 90s breaking out corn brooms in the fifth end break when they were trailing to change the ice. Poor sports or innovative pioneers? There were some on both sides of the issue then, just as there are now.
My teams didn't break out corn brooms, didn't high-side/low-side corner sweep in clear violation of the rules and we don't push stuff in front of a heavy stone or switch heads every end or have one guy sweeping the very edge of the rock. And we don't relaease the rock two feet past the hogline either, for that matter. And we expect our competitors to police themselves and play with the best intentions and try to keep the sport fair. And by and large they do and we're honoured to be part of this group.
Nevertheless, with the money in today's game, there will always be people who push the envelope and the game may have to develop ways of dealing with offenders.
But we should separate the real issues away from a business dispute over the loss of market share, and sour grapes from a couple of teams looking to excuse their disappointments.
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10-20-15 02:23PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
I know for a fact that Curling Canada and the World Curling Federation are taking this very seriously and contemplating their next move. The biggest issue for them is that they can't just implement any kind of serious change without properly testing and going over all considerations.
1. Fabric
2. Inserts in Brushpads
3. How sweeping affects shots
This is not a problem with a simple solution. Hours upon hours of discussion and analysis and there is no great answer yet on where this has to go.
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10-20-15 02:49PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote: Originally posted by Gerry
I know for a fact that Curling Canada and the World Curling Federation are taking this very seriously and contemplating their next move. The biggest issue for them is that they can't just implement any kind of serious change without properly testing and going over all considerations.
1. Fabric
2. Inserts in Brushpads
3. How sweeping affects shots
This is not a problem with a simple solution. Hours upon hours of discussion and analysis and there is no great answer yet on where this has to go.
Thanks Gerry (spelled your name properly this time!).
I wouldn't expect a quick resolution, because of the reasons you mentioned. It would have been nice if they at least said something though. No communication just makes it sound like they are burying their heads in the sand.
I hope, going forward, they invest some money into equipment testing and evaluation (like golf). Technology is always going to be driving the equipment in our sport... and it will require constant evaluation.
__________________
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
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10-20-15 03:35PM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
Gerry, Are CCA and WCF also testing the effects of corn brooms since they are still allowed? And, do WCF rules still allow the older brooms made of Scotch broom? I've seen plenty of pre-1800 curling illustrations with old round brooms with sweepers going hard in the final few feet. Maybe those old curlers knew something about curling stone movement we do not.
FWIW: I was reminded today that old sweeping rules didn't allow sweeping until the rock crossed the far hogline and didn't allow angle sweeping either.
quote: Originally posted by Gerry
I know for a fact that Curling Canada and the World Curling Federation are taking this very seriously and contemplating their next move. The biggest issue for them is that they can't just implement any kind of serious change without properly testing and going over all considerations.
1. Fabric
2. Inserts in Brushpads
3. How sweeping affects shots
This is not a problem with a simple solution. Hours upon hours of discussion and analysis and there is no great answer yet on where this has to go.
Last edited by Alice on 10-20-15 at 09:18PM
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10-20-15 05:41PM |
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jcullen
Hitting Paint
Registered: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 170 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
why did you choose hardline for a sponsor ? financial or you thought it was a superior broom ?
"corked " was kind of a pun for better .. which i assume it is
When my team was looking for an equipment sponsor 3 years ago, we had just seen some Hardline brooms pop up on tour and were excited by the opportunity to work with an emerging company who were very passionate about the business(and still are, those two guys are incredibly passionate business people). As I'm sure you're aware, curling has been dominated by a handful of brands over the last decade or more, and it was cool to think we might have an opportunity to work with an emerging brand.
After we tried the broom, it became very clear to us it was a superior product. Not for any of the reasons you think, but we just felt it was lighter, faster, didn't wear the ice down as other products did, and allowed us to stay in better shape in between games and throughout events.
Still feel that way.
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