Registered: Oct 2004
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Following the #broomhaha which spawned The Curling News' February issue expose of brushing techniques "I Can Sweep Like A Pro... And I Am Ruining Curling" ...

... and the video from Norway's Team Hoiberg...

Team Gushue has released their own brushing test video:

http://bit.ly/1PHqWvU

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Proof it's not the material, it's the technique. I'm sure they'd get similar results no matter what manufacturer they use.

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Registered: Feb 2011
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I wish they had used the "approved" Hardline, or used the hair without the directional sweeping. Because this doesn't prove whether it's more the broom or more the technique.

What it does prove is that what I assume is a brand new hair broom (proven to most effective when new) can do the same things that the Hardline version that got banned can do.

It doesn't appear to me Gushue is trying to outlaw the technique (otherwise he would have done a test with brushing across face of rock), he's trying to prove hair needs to be banned.

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So the Hardline's biggest advantage is it keeps the distance of the stone relatively similar to the control stone. The hairbrush shortens the shot against the curl and lengthened the shot with the curl.

Obvious the sweeping methods need to be changed, not the equipment.

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Now this is consistent with what our team has tested as far as how much you can make a rock change paths. The Hoiberg video certainly has some flaws or they are using a very different hair broom than I can get my hands on. Thank you to team Gushue for comparing the hair to the original ice pad. I'm on the fence about directional sweeping, but I agree that Hardline has been dealt a very unfair blow over the past year and if this test has any merit than the hair should also go. However if you were to do this test with the Norway and or the new balance plus synthetics I feel it would be very similar and thus not the fabric but the technique.

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100% agree that it's a start to proving that this was never an issue of the Icepad and insert being the problem but yet Hardline was strung-up in a witch hunt that was seemingly baseless. The next version of this test would be to simply do the same sequence of controlled shots that Gushue did and use the traditional East to West sweeping. It's ok to just use 1 sweeper on the side you are trying to influence (kinda like the old "Morris Switch" approach but don't snowplow and corner sweep it. Let's see where the rocks go. And heck let's do that test with a Balance Plus Eq+ and a GoldLine Norway pad just for the heck of it as compared to a hair broom. I actually don't know what the result will be but I'd like to see it.

It would seem banning brooms was an easy path for the WCF and CCA to take because it does not impact judgment based rules enforcement on the ice but the realty is that path was the wrong one because it did not address what the actual problem was. Bla Bla we can't enforce sweeping rules because it's a judgement call. We put someone in a chair on the hogline for decades to enforce a judgement call and everyone lived with that realty in the game. A simple system of perhaps 1 or 2 warnings of sweeping infractions and then start the process of removing stones for the balance of the game.

Good work by the Gushue crew showing the strongest testing video yet with speed traps and the visualization of where rocks travelled to in a series of shots. This same testing can be done extensively with multiple brooms, fabrics, shot selections (with the speed traps), lasers to ensure consistency of line of release etc etc. We need to put this sweeping and broom issue to bed with extensive, independent and unbiased testing supported by transparent results publication & video evidence soon. Is the 2016 Brier going to have an Asterix beside it because it was the #BroomGate Brier?

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It was a great video. What would have made it complete would have been for them to also sweep with an EQ and a Norway too ( I know they are not contracted to Goldline or Balance Plus but if they are able to achieve similar results with all brooms then the ban would be shown to be nothing more than punitive measures by the governing bodies to placate sponsors.

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A video I would find more compelling is one that shows whether or not the sweeping changes the ice for the next shot. Does a certain brush head scratch the ice (impacting the next stone down that same path) more than any other brush head?

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It took 5 minutes for Gushue and friends to do this very revealing video. I also wish they would have done the same test with EQ and Norway pads.

Four months later, no word from WCF or CCA regarding all the testing they were supposed to do. Buying time for their friendly sponsors?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Itsjustagame
Four months later, no word from WCF or CCA regarding all the testing they were supposed to do. Buying time for their friendly sponsors?

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Last edited by Posada on 02-12-16 at 02:45PM

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Video #2 made me laugh so hard! Well done.

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Given this I'm surprised teams are still using one synthetic and not two hairs while they still can.

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I think that anybody with any knowledge of the curling world would agree that at this point in the season wholesale changes cannot be made. We have to ride it out and see what comes at us in the summer. I also feel that WCF and the CCA are treading very lightly on revealing the results of any tests that they've completed - due to the fact that if in fact Hardline is exonerated as being the only "illegal" brush head on the open market than you can bet that legal action will be taken towards the parties that diminished their sales for the past year. It would have been different if it were only the teams on tour who banned the hardline, but the WCF and CCA went in on it as well for their sanctioned events and thus has created what we call a "cluster f###" of possible solutions and outcomes. This is going to get real ugly for parties involved.

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the video is not a perfect test but certainly show a significant difference with the variation in technique. Makes you wonder what we have been doing all these years.

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What are the chances that CC or the WCF admit they made a mistake and fix the rules to combat the sweeping technique as opposed to their kneejerk, sponsor driven ban on a perfectly good broom. They can't ban Hair considering that was their stated solution to the problem. My guess is they do nothing now because they have no real clue what they are doing and are more politics driven as opposed to for the good of the game.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
What are the chances that CC or the WCF admit they made a mistake

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actually, you say "this appears to be the problem and we will be looking into it", then you devise fair and unbiased testing using baseline controls as a starting point. After testing all possibilities you share your findings, findings that are easily reproduced in all similar settings by other independent testers and then you act on it in a way that satisfies the problem.

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quote:

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Originally posted by curlky


I dont think anyone made a mistake. There was a very tense environment in curling, and something needed to be done to calm the situation. They always have said, this is the ruling, and we will do more testing from here. This is a prudent process if you ask me. Any business or family, if there is a problem, the solution is always, what can we do right now, and then what will we do next. There are times when the first action is not always the best, and you correct as you go.

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I don't know how anyone can look at this problem and say that the equipment is not the issue? Would directional brushing be as effective with any old broom?

Yes, the newly discovered brushing techniques showed us that brushing can do a whole lot more than we thought, but if the brushes weren't as effective as they are, it wouldn't matter. The problem we currently have is that the margin for error players have for shooting is larger than ever. Even if you fixed the techniques, what happens if new brushes can take a rock thrown just over the hogline and put it on the button? How can anyone at this point say that could never happen? Are you so sure that a perfectly by the book brushing stroke still wouldn't be able to have directional abilities? Even if it doesn't now, how can you be so sure that they wouldn't come up with something that will in the future?

How can anyone be against having strict guidelines for brushes? Ban the hair, mandate the fabric, do whatever you have to do about inserts and be done with it. Problem solved. This is so much easier (and more effective) than enforcing rules on sweeping techniques, which will inevitably involve a judgement call, something I've always been grateful that curling doesn't have to deal with. All sports have rules about equipment, why shouldn't curling?

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Couple of comments here:

First- Peteski you are dead wrong continuing to focus on the equipment as the issue. For whatever reason, guys like you continue to point fingers at the tools when more and more data clearly shows its the way people are sweeping, not the brush being used. Even if you eliminated all brushes completely and said its back to synthetic corn you would see similar results-it happened back in the 70's when there were Rink Rats and Mark 2 Cats in abundance. Ask any old competitive curler from those days and they'll tell you such.


Let's also remember that the entire purpose of sweeping is not to drag a rock further and/or straighter as some like to claim. It is to manipulate the course of the stone to aid in making the shot. The question remains how much manipulation is acceptable?

Although the Gushue video is not scientific in its procedures or data, it is a vast improvement on the original Howard video and what it does show very clearly is this:

The instrument is not at fault. It is most likely the technique and the rules allowing said technique to be at fault. So banning, as Peteski strangely supports, equipment which until now wasn't considered a problem is not going to change anything.

Second-Gushue's video does not go far enough. He shows three good things: Split times, a control stone and hair vs. synthetic. What he fails to show is what happens when you bring in two sweepers, one on each side and if the impact is the same as the single sweeper going against and with the curl.

If that testing showed, as I strongly suspect, the stone curling not as much as one sweeper with the curl and more than one sweeper against then it, IMO, proves the micro scratching theory that sweeping imparts on the ice.

In short, the lead sweeper is creating micro-scratches that is at cross purposes to what the sweeper closest to the stone is attempting to do. This means that the close sweeper is having to erase the micro scratching left by the lead sweeper.

Your obvious question is: What does this mean for the future?

Well, for the most part it means that CURRENT equipment is not the culprit. It is, again IMO, a combination of the one sweeper technique and the rules allowing snowplowing and corner sweeping.

You can eliminate snowplowing and cornering with a rule that clearly defines and explains an acceptable sweeping motion. We can, and absolutely should, begin proper testing and regulating of ALL equipment (And I mean shoes as well as brooms).

Do those two things and you will lessen the so-called 'Joysticking' and make the delivery and release the larger part of successful shotmaking that everyone wants it to be.

But understand this: one-sweeper techniques are not going away and will be almost impossible to stop. That genie is out of the bottle and here to stay. Yes, two brushers will always be needed to drag a draw furthest if need be. But when the weight is good and line is more critical then you will have only one person sweeping dependent upon the need; hold straight or more curl.

The only way you ever eliminate this is to eliminate sweeping altogether. Something which will never, or should, happen.

Lastly, lets get over our foolish fear of officials watching how curlers sweep. We want our game to be big time but we are not going to be able to maintain the fantasy that we can leave rules up to the players. Every sport employs officials and we can be no different. Even golf is not without officials who can-contrary to what some believe-step in at any time and call and penalize players for violating the rules (whether it be intentional or accidental).

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Last edited by jamcan on 02-13-16 at 04:15PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by fresca
GOD has spoken - listen and obey - arguing will not be tolerated.

hey jamee , what did you do for a living ?

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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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quote:

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Originally posted by jamcan
Couple of comments here:

First- Peteski you are dead wrong continuing to focus on the equipment as the issue. Although the Gushue video is not scientific in its procedures or data, it is a vast improvement on the original Howard video and what it does show very clearly is this:

The instrument is not at fault. It is most likely the technique and the rules allowing said technique to be at fault.

Second-Gushue's video does not go far enough. He shows three good things: Split times, a control stone and hair vs. synthetic. What he fails to show is what happens when you bring in two sweepers, one on each side and if the impact is the same as the single sweeper going against and with the curl.

If that testing showed, as I strongly suspect, the stone curling not as much as one sweeper with the curl and more than one sweeper against then it, IMO, proves the micro scratching theory that sweeping imparts on the ice.

In short, the lead sweeper is creating micro-scratches that is at cross purposes to what the sweeper closest to the stone is attempting to do. This means that the close sweeper is having to erase the micro scratching left by the lead sweeper.

Your obvious question is: What does this mean for the future?

Well, for the most part it means that CURRENT equipment is not the culprit. It is, again IMO, a combination of the one sweeper technique and the rules allowing snowplowing and corner sweeping.

You can eliminate snowplowing and cornering with a rule that clearly defines and explains an acceptable sweeping motion. We can, and absolutely should, begin proper testing and regulating of ALL equipment (And I mean shoes as well as brooms).

Do those two things and you will lessen the so-called 'Joysticking' and make the delivery and release the larger part of successful shotmaking that everyone wants it to be.

But understand this: one-sweeper techniques are not going away and will be almost impossible to stop. That genie is out of the bottle and here to stay. Yes, two brushers will always be needed to drag a draw furthest if need be. But when the weight is good and line is more critical then you will have only one person sweeping dependent upon the need; hold straight or more curl.

The only way you ever eliminate this is to eliminate sweepeing altogether. Something which never will, or should, happen.

Lastly, lets get over our foolish fear of officials watching how curlers sweep. We want our game to be big time but we are not going to be able to maintain the fantasy that we can leave rules up to the players. Every sport employs officials and we can be no different. Even golf is not without officials who can-contrary to what some believe-step in at any time and call and penalize players for violating the rules (whether it be intentional or accidental).

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Registered: Dec 2014
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In the USA Nationals, Brady Clark's team had hair heads that no team could replicate the result of their sweeping. Technique may be part of it, but those hair brushes are crazy!

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quote:

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Originally posted by fresca
lol ..

jamcan , jamcan,
good old jamcan
good old jamcam
hes a horses ...

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Registered: Jan 2005
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Why is Fresca even on here, she offers nothing of value

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