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02-03-16 10:03AM |
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youngen
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 99 |
Geez Ben,
I know you are busy in the summertime, but you need to get out to the lake more. I probably have 20 lbs of Devils Lake and LOTW caught prime in my freezer right now. If you really want to make the Minnesotans sweat their bet, tell them they need to include a 1/2 lb of "cheeks" with those fillets.
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02-03-16 11:06AM |
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peglegg
Hitting Paint
Registered: Mar 2005
Location:
Posts: 101 |
MN
MN back end has been there before and the skip is as cool as they come. If the front end holds up they will be in the playoffs.
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02-03-16 01:52PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Frozen? No, no, no, no, no. I want it swimming in the morning and on my plate at night. True, properly cleaned and properly frozen walleye from a freezer without auto-defrost is way better than any meal I've had in a month, BUT I want the good stuff. The stuff you fishing guys make for your mama.
OR you gophers could get Specks to grill me a steak (he has to finish mine with butter...which he does to perfection...because I'm more interested in the quality of my days than the quantity of my days), but it has to be Specks.
Ben Tucker (now a skinny bookie, soon to be a fat bookie)
PS Good luck to the Minnesota Men's and Women's Club teams. We're just having fun here. If Mnice says you're good, I believe him. He knows the game.
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02-03-16 06:36PM |
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thekiltedcurler
Knee-Slider
Registered: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 8 |
Update on the Washington men - turns out Ken Trask and company are actually going to stay home, which means that John Shoesmith's team will be going instead. They have been runners up a few times at the state playdown in recent years.
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02-04-16 09:50AM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote: Originally posted by thekiltedcurler
Update on the Washington men - turns out Ken Trask and company are actually going to stay home, which means that John Shoesmith's team will be going instead. They have been runners up a few times at the state playdown in recent years.
So, looking at the Washington play down which had 5 teams from the Granite CC,when was the last time the other Washington Club had a representative at the play down? When was the last time any other club but Granite represented Washington at Clubs? Is the Arena ice in Spokane the only other Washington club that is a USCA member?
I am opening a big can of worms here, but at what point do we decide how many clubs a state or region has to have to get its own spot in the Club Championships? Granted they do very well, but as other areas grow this needs to be looked at. the GNCC did get two reps because Alaska didn't use their spot, but most years they have many teams from a wide geographical area and get one rep. Mopac is getting to that point as well.
I apologize if this subject is already being addressed at the USCA, but as our sport grows we can't let things to continue as they have been because "that's the way it has always been done".
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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02-04-16 10:54AM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
Interesting concept Biterbar. Should the GNCC get 25% of the spots since we have 25% of the curlers in the US? If you take the big three (WI, MN, GNCC) and give them two spots each, that leaves 4 for the rest of the country. Combine AK, WA and Mopac for two, Midamerica/at large for one and whoever is left for one?
How about three regionals - East, Midwest, West. Each gets three spots with the regional with the most entries getting a fourth.
Not being discussed at the USCA that I know of but this would be under operational not board.
JH
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02-04-16 11:21AM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
SHOESMITH? Yeah, baby! Here we go!
With props to my homie ND team and friends and acquaintances in the field, I'm cheering for Shoe.
Shoesmith was Manitoba raised. He went to college at NDSU in Fargo and played some Juniors out of there. Finished second at State one year. Poor kid was going bald at 20; I imagine he's extremely bald by now. Great guy.
As for Biter and JH and fair and equitable representation: Careful for unintended consequences. Every change we've made for competitive curling in the last decade has pooped all over the Pacific Northwest. You start messing around with Clubs and we lose the last traditional vestige of pretending we care about them. They already have precious few reasons to belong to the USCA. Don't push them over the edge. (yeah, Fairbanks gets all the Alaska spots to themselves these days)
It's Clubs. Don't piss people off for Clubs. Don't lose Seattle and Fairbanks over this. Geography and travel expenses need to be factored in when one discusses "fairness".
Ben Tucker
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02-04-16 01:47PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote: Originally posted by tuck
SHOESMITH? Yeah, baby! Here we go!
With props to my homie ND team and friends and acquaintances in the field, I'm cheering for Shoe.
Shoesmith was Manitoba raised. He went to college at NDSU in Fargo and played some Juniors out of there. Finished second at State one year. Poor kid was going bald at 20; I imagine he's extremely bald by now. Great guy.
As for Biter and JH and fair and equitable representation: Careful for unintended consequences. Every change we've made for competitive curling in the last decade has pooped all over the Pacific Northwest. You start messing around with Clubs and we lose the last traditional vestige of pretending we care about them. They already have precious few reasons to belong to the USCA. Don't push them over the edge. (yeah, Fairbanks gets all the Alaska spots to themselves these days)
It's Clubs. Don't piss people off for Clubs. Don't lose Seattle and Fairbanks over this. Geography and travel expenses need to be factored in when one discusses "fairness".
Ben Tucker
I totally disagree. Here is a map of the clubs.
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...Find-a-Club/Map
I think those areas growing and promoting curling at the grassroots and club level need to be rewarded for their efforts. Clubs is a big thing for "club" curlers. I'm not sure giving one club a representative every year gives justice to the 164 other clubs vying for 9 spots. These members didn't poop on anyone, they are just looking for a fair opportunity to compete. I don't like the concept of giving regions multiple spots so their top two make it in, but maybe a GNCC North and South. Make it regional cutting travel for the first play down. Putting Seattle with Oregon and Northern California might be a start.
We have a saying in Cheese land that two wrongs don't make a right, maybe you've heard of it.
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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02-04-16 01:55PM |
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youngen
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 99 |
quote: Originally posted by jhcurl
Interesting concept Biterbar. Should the GNCC get 25% of the spots since we have 25% of the curlers in the US? If you take the big three (WI, MN, GNCC) and give them two spots each, that leaves 4 for the rest of the country. Combine AK, WA and Mopac for two, Midamerica/at large for one and whoever is left for one?
How about three regionals - East, Midwest, West. Each gets three spots with the regional with the most entries getting a fourth.
Not being discussed at the USCA that I know of but this would be under operational not board.
JH
Ha! Are you serious? I have to agree with Tuck not to start pissing people off about Clubs. So you are telling me that say ND, which you didn't even mention except for saying "whoever is left" should possibly not even have a spot because our population base doesn't make up enough USCA membership percentage? Since Clubs has started, the ND Men's playdown has yet to field less than 11 teams. I guess that doesn't mean much to everyone else from the larger population centers. I mean MN with all its members typically fields only 6-8 teams for their Men's playdown, but they need 2 spots for it.
I have a sign in my office that reads "Because we did it that way before is not an acceptable answer" but I'm not about to support changing the Club Nationals format for that sake of representation by population.
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02-04-16 02:05PM |
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youngen
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 99 |
quote: Originally posted by biterbar
I totally disagree. Here is a map of the clubs.
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...Find-a-Club/Map
I think those areas growing and promoting curling at the grassroots and club level need to be rewarded for their efforts. Clubs is a big thing for "club" curlers. I'm not sure giving one club a representative every year gives justice to the 164 other clubs vying for 9 spots. These members didn't poop on anyone, they are just looking for a fair opportunity to compete. I don't like the concept of giving regions multiple spots so their top two make it in, but maybe a GNCC North and South. Make it regional cutting travel for the first play down. Putting Seattle with Oregon and Northern California might be a start.
We have a saying in Cheese land that two wrongs don't make a right, maybe you've heard of it.
Representation for Club's should have nothing to do with the state's curling population or the number of clubs it has. If Granite can field nearly as many teams for the Washington State Playdown as other states do, then why does it matter? They had 5 this year. MN had only 7 with 3 from the entire Mpls/St. Paul area. The number of clubs in an area has NOTHING to do with the number of competitive curlers in the area that are interested in playing Club Nationals.
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02-04-16 02:23PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote: Originally posted by youngen
Representation for Club's should have nothing to do with the state's curling population or the number of clubs it has. If Granite can field nearly as many teams for the Washington State Playdown as other states do, then why does it matter? They had 5 this year. MN had only 7 with 3 from the entire Mpls/St. Paul area. The number of clubs in an area has NOTHING to do with the number of competitive curlers in the area that are interested in playing Club Nationals.
I think the GNCC is a counterpoint to your statement "The number of clubs in an area has NOTHING to do with the number of competitive curlers in the area that are interested in playing Club Nationals".
Give my club that probably doesn't have half the members of Granite a spot in clubs and I'll get you six teams every year to play down. And hey, if the winner doesn't want to go we can pass it down the line until somebody does.
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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02-04-16 03:05PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
Tongue removed from cheek
I don't think there needs to be any change to the way spots are allocated to regions for clubs. It is still nice to have a regional championship. So it is harder to get out of some regions than others, no big deal.
JH
stirring the pot since the days of InTheHack
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02-04-16 03:17PM |
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youngen
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 99 |
quote: Originally posted by biterbar
I think the GNCC is a counterpoint to your statement "The number of clubs in an area has NOTHING to do with the number of competitive curlers in the area that are interested in playing Club Nationals".
Give my club that probably doesn't have half the members of Granite a spot in clubs and I'll get you six teams every year to play down. And hey, if the winner doesn't want to go we can pass it down the line until somebody does.
I could approach this several ways:
1. If GNCC wants to have more spots such as a GNCC-North and GNCC-South playdowns and send teams from each to Club Nat's there is nothing stopping them. Simply apply the proper route through the USCA Board and such to split into 2 governing areas. Not a good route to take IMO, but an option.
2. IF YOU REALLY WANT ALL THESE EXTRA BERTHS INTO NATIONALS THAN SIGN THOSE 6 TEAMS UP TO PLAY ANYWAYS AND MAKE A CASE FOR GNCC NEEDING THE EXTRA SPOTS AFTER A COUPLE YEARS OF SHOWING YOU CAN BRING 20+ TEAMS TO YOUR PLAYDOWNS!!! I know the East is a large area and that you guys typically have good turnout already, but only having one spot should not hinder anyone who truly WANTS to play from playing down to begin with. Washington should not be penalized because the majority of that state lives in the Seattle area and makes the effort to drive to, and curl from the Granite CC.
3. If everyone thinks that Club Nat's should be available to more teams I have heard people support turning it into a large, signup-and-go type of tournament for any club team from any region and just having a huge 9-day triple knockout for the Gold. I'm undecided, but this sounds WAY BETTER than anything I've heard so far from biterbar.
Last edited by youngen on 02-04-16 at 03:20PM
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02-04-16 03:21PM |
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youngen
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 99 |
quote: Originally posted by jhcurl
Tongue removed from cheek
I don't think there needs to be any change to the way spots are allocated to regions for clubs. It is still nice to have a regional championship. So it is harder to get out of some regions than others, no big deal.
JH
stirring the pot since the days of InTheHack
AMEN!!
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02-04-16 03:45PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
Hey, no skin off my back if everyone thinks Seattle is it's own region, or Fairbanks for that matter. Basically two clubs controlling 20% o the spots is fine with me as long as this forum says it's OK.
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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02-04-16 03:45PM |
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thekiltedcurler
Knee-Slider
Registered: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 8 |
The club in Spokane has only been operational again for about 4 years now, and I have yet to see any full teams make the trip across the state for a fun bonspiel yet.
Keep in mind that in general, the further west you go, the greater the distances between towns/cities. Spokane is 285 miles from Seattle; on a nice summer day that is a 4 hour drive. In winter, if the weather in the pass is bad it can take the better part of a day or you might not be able to get through at all. I am aware that the GNCC covers a lot of real estate too, but there will almost always be a few clubs within reasonable driving distance of the playdown site. I'm amazed at the participation MOPAC gets for their playdowns because if you are not from the host club you pretty much have to fly.
If you want to combine Washington and Alaska (with or without Oregon and California), you are basically telling the competitive players that at least every other year they will need to fly to or from Alaska just to playdown. That is not a short or cheap flight and I promise you will result in greatly diminished overall participation.
If you want to increase participation, why not increase the size of the field at nationals? Yeah, you would lose the full round robin, but is it really necessary? This is clubs, not men's or women's.
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02-04-16 03:50PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
Racine CC to Superior CC in Wisconsin, 400 plus miles, 6 or 7 hours. No mountains but it is winter in Wisconsin.
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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02-04-16 06:28PM |
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thekiltedcurler
Knee-Slider
Registered: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 8 |
No doubt Wisconsin is a large state with its own winter weather challenges. That 400+ miles and 6-7 hours looks to be fairly representative of the longest distance a team would potentially need to travel with quite a few clubs in between.
If you were to combine Washington with Alaska and of MOPAC (all or part), the shortest distance would be from Seattle to Portland which is probably close to 4 hours. I would call that distance reasonable, but there are very few clubs which would fall within a 6-7 hour drive from each other. Fairbanks to Seattle is a 1,500 mile flight; roughly equivalent to flying from from Madison, Wisconsin to Las Vegas.
I don't see any way where combining Alaska with any other region is practical. Can an argument be made for a broader Pacific Northwest region? Sure. Will it happen? Probably not.
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02-04-16 06:50PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote: Originally posted by thekiltedcurler
No doubt Wisconsin is a large state with its own winter weather challenges. That 400+ miles and 6-7 hours looks to be fairly representative of the longest distance a team would potentially need to travel with quite a few clubs in between.
If you were to combine Washington with Alaska and of MOPAC (all or part), the shortest distance would be from Seattle to Portland which is probably close to 4 hours. I would call that distance reasonable, but there are very few clubs which would fall within a 6-7 hour drive from each other. Fairbanks to Seattle is a 1,500 mile flight; roughly equivalent to flying from from Madison, Wisconsin to Las Vegas.
I don't see any way where combining Alaska with any other region is practical. Can an argument be made for a broader Pacific Northwest region? Sure. Will it happen? Probably not.
Agreed. Alaska represents an issue on all fronts. What they need is a few more curling clubs, as Washington and Oregon do!
I'm not complaining, it doesn't affect me one bit, just making an observation. Change will occur someday, but not soon.
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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02-04-16 07:15PM |
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acurlingfan
Knee-Slider
Registered: Feb 2016
Location:
Posts: 2 |
For the record the GNCC goes from Belfast ME to Orlando FL. Thats just about 1500 miles. From a dedicated ice perspective its over 1000 miles from Belfast to Charlotte. So the argument its too far from Alaska to Seattle really doesn't hold water.
Also, what about IL. Why aren't we talking about them?
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02-09-16 05:54PM |
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melvin
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 57 |
What about Illinois, indeed. AK and WA are geographically challenged, and that can put up a good argument. ND, MN and WI have ****ty winters making travel difficult, for certain. Fine. But it's pretty easy to slice a line through Illinois and consolidate it's meager list of remain clubs into one or all of WI, Mid America and the GLCA.
If curling continues to grow in the East, especially the Southeast, I think there will be a valid argument there as well. Traffic is the East's bad winters.
As for the level of participation at Granite - hardly surprising that there is a good turnout. When you are the home club it's easy to show up and play rather than miss a weekend of curling. And since it's the only host club, spreading the word and drumming up interest year over year is just a byproduct of the event itself.
It's pretty routine to see a team or two from the home club that you wouldn't otherwise expect if they had to travel.
Note this does not just affect Club Nat'ls, but also Mixed, with has both Nat'ls and Worlds.
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02-10-16 06:53PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
...and Juniors, Melvin. That being said, nobody cares right this minute. What we want to know is: Who will be the Women's Club team from Potomac? I think I have them picked for silver. If there's an opportunity to score some Maryland crabcakes, I need to know.
Ben Tucker
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02-11-16 10:34AM |
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melvin
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 57 |
forgot Juniors... of course...
Looks like the GNCC lineup will be Steph Erstad, Courtney Shaw, Laura Yee and Laura Heuer. I know Erstad has been at this event representing WI in the past, and I think won it at least once. Strong hitters overall in the backend, I know this because I happen to be married to Courtney, and have the bruises to prove it. But if they can manage to keep it simple, I think a silver is in the realm of the real.
Of course, keeping it simple can sometimes be tough in this event. I suggest establishing a pool with over/under on the number of center guards thrown with hammer over the course of the week.
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02-11-16 03:55PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Hhhummm...team didn't exactly dance through the GNCC playdown...now they've lost their skip?
I have a lot of respect for Steph. Won this shooting for Karst. I'm losing faith. I may not be married to Courtney, but I once cornered her in the dingy basement of the world's best curling bar (The Extra End...curling house laid into the floor by the pool table). I, too, have the bruises to prove it.
I need to review and rethink. I'm now leaning towards Schmoose for silver. It even has a nice ring to it. I should be above jesting about peoples' names, but misspelling names is kind of a theme with me.
Ben Tucker
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02-12-16 02:50AM |
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Deez
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 86 |
Seattle has produced the last 3 club mens champions. More impressively IMO is with 11 different players(Ken Trask being the only person to play for two winners). Perhaps the problem isn't that Washington competitive curling comes from one club, but that the GNCC encompasses all of the East Coast. What might be better, and more compelling is to break up all regions into single states and make clubs into a European style championship. Top 8 teams stay, bottom two are relegated and the remaining states play a March Madness style tournament that qualifies next years teams.
Last edited by Deez on 02-12-16 at 02:53AM
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