Registered: Sep 2011
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quote:

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Originally posted by westcoveroadie
Looks like winner of Shuster v Brown tonight gets a spot in the 1-2 page playoff game, thereby ensuring that team a spot on the podium. Which means, I believe, that Team Clark can win the national title, but cannot advance to Worlds.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


Not necessarily, but the end result is the same

Dropkin can climb into a 3 way tie for 2nd with a W over Clawson and a Brown W over Shuster. That tie would be broken by LSD results, I believe (and I don't know those standings). It could be possible that Dropkin could get 2nd.

However, even if that happens, the 3/4 match would be Brown v. Shuster, which one of them would have to win, thereby guaranteeing a podium slot.

Which would eliminate Clark from World's contention, guaranteeing whichever team won that 3/4 game the berth.

Gotta love determining your World's rep in the effective Quarterfinal.

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HERE'S A TIP FOR FUTURE TEAMS:

As the round robin comes to a close, look at the records for each set of rocks on each sheet. Also look for upsets. This will help you once you get into the playoffs and maybe have rock choice. Do NOT simply pick the rocks that you had a good game with.

So far, the Red on sheet 5 have a very poor record. So does the Yellow on sheet 3. I'd view them with extreme suspicion. I'd take the nightly available practice ice and look them over really hard.

Jimbo, I wimped out and didn't go down for this. I hemmed and hawed until it got too late. I'm not very bright (except I was bright enough to pick the B Bunch) Thank you, Guertzie, for answering his question.

The success of a Nationals venue in the USA is measured differently than in Canada. Ticket sales on opening, closing and evening draws is important. The arena staff and their abilities to promote an event are key for that number. More importantly is interest/media generated. If we want curling to grow from Alaska to Florida and Maine to California, interest and media is the vital first step.

Ben Tucker

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After throwing a game at third for Heater this week and skipping last year, Duck Gemmell has thrown every position in his Men's National career. I'm not sure that's ever been done. Mark Haluptzok?

Ben Tucker

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Merci

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Jim

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quote:

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Originally posted by AlanMacNeill



Gotta love determining your World's rep in the effective Quarterfinal.

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Aaaaand that's all she wrote, folks. "Nationals" is done, nothing to see here...

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Registered: Dec 2005
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Congratulations to Team Shuster. Good luck at Worlds and good luck continuing an historic run.

I watched the game against Brown. It's going to sound odd, because Face Team won and earned a spot in the Page 1v2 and earned a trip to Worlds, but I didn't think Face was doing a very good job in the house. He has had such solid house skills for over a decade, so maybe I'm overthinking stuff; but more than a couple of line calls were not sharp. Rolls that should have gotten cover and doubles that should have moved both rocks...stuff like that. It's something that I've never seen out of him and probably will never see again.

So we get Face Team vs Top Seed B Bunch in the Page 1v2 and Brownie vs Kiddos in the Page 3v4. While the Junior champs have been very impressive, I like Brown to win that game.

I also like my pick of Team Clark to win the whole thing. They seem to be far more advanced in the new Directional Sweeping. Pooh Persinger finished the round robin with the best stats at third. Hufman (from Alaska) looks solid as a rock. Tilker may not have the best stats in the field, but he makes the big Weagel Tic shots and all his shots in the pressure filled later ends. Brady's weight seems flawless.

It's not that Brown and Dropkin are without a really good chance, but it sure seems like Shuster and Clark are at a higher level this particular week. It's hard for me to pick from the two, but the B Bunch sweeping seems to give them the edge.

Ben Tucker

PS I've been a vocal cheerleader for USA teams at Worlds for a long time. Often I've been overly optimistic. If you think I was optimistic before, just wait. Considering Erika's team, Face's team and both of our Junior teams...you'd have to back to the late 70's to find another year in which our prospects looked so good.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dbsdbs


Gotta love a national championship where both the mens and womens playoffs have nothing on the line.

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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck
I realize that many are disappointed that the World teams are already set. I won't even try to defend the World Team Selection On Points stuff. I don't agree with it and I'm getting tired of pointing out its obvious benefits.

I will, however, disagree with those that think the playoffs are now meaningless. Much is on the line. (IMWright had a sweet line in the Men's thread, "Move along now. Nothing to see here anymore.)

In particular, there is a ton on the line in the Women's playoffs. Erika and her team lapped the field (another great line stolen from others) on the OOM Points. They did this outside of the HPP and are a lock to be at Worlds and a good bet to win this. Will they stay outside the HPP? Not likely. That's a lot of money to turn down.

3 of the 4 Junior Girls age out. I've long thought that Cory and Sarah are exceptional talents and now it appears that I have to add Taylor to that list. I'm thinking that the HPP will have to make room for them in the Women's program (especially if they run the table in the playoffs and/or have an exceptional World Juniors).

So if room must be made for Team Brown and room must be made for aging Juniors, what about the 8 women currently in the HPP? Unless the USOC suddenly floods us with money, it looks like they are playing for their spots. Forget any HPP Combine. These gals had better win this thing if they want to stay funded.

The same can be said for the Men's side; especially if Team Brady wins it...and doubly so if Team Brady wins it and goes on to do well at the Champions. With Face Team in the middle of a great year, how do you make room for Brady? Well, by making some cuts.

All of this is critically important as we begin the runup to the Olympic Trials. Olympic dreams, with the Trials Qualifying process that has been already been decided, are going to start dying far sooner than you might expect. If the easiest path to The Trials and becoming a member of the USA Olympic team lays inside of the HPP (and it is the easiest path by far), then the next three days are extremely important. Important to the curlers and to us fans.

Ben Tucker

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How about the incentive to keeping the naysayers yaps shut about how it wasn't earned on the ice? Winning proves they were the best before, during and after the finals. That they put the time and effort in to win. And on the women's side to say we are the High Performance team whether or not we were appointed by the USCA.

As for the others the incentive is there as well, I see these games losing little competitive luster as teams and individuals have much to prove and to gain and lose in the next year and beyond. All of these games are still VERY important in determining who our next HP members and Olympians will be.

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Hi -- first-time poster, longtime fan. (And one-time curler, as in I've had the opportunity to try it exactly once, but I'm thinking I want to try again before the season ends.)

I think there's a Catch-22 here. I sense a lot of frustration that USA Curling has put such an emphasis on Worlds and the Olympics that it's taking away from the traditional club game. But if we all love our regular spiels and championships, then shouldn't we be able to enjoy the U.S. Championship on its own merits? And if it means Shuster or Brown might be able to get into better events in the future, isn't that just another good reason to be interested?

Perhaps things could be tweaked a little so there's a little more suspense. Maybe the U.S. champion should play the OOM leader for the berth at Worlds.

But I'm still enjoying this event.

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Guys, you know how this Canuck feels about US curling-we need American teams on the podiums in order for the game to take the next step-interprovincial/inter-state competition is great but look at what our rivalry has done for international hockey.

I know that "Brown Shoes" (I won't charge a royalty for using the name) have been the best US rinks all year and "on paper" are the best choices to represent the country at the respective championships. If you saw my earlier posts, you know that I think Erika has a good shot at the podium. Up here the Number 1A women's rink IN THE WORLD (Rachel Homan) didn't make it OUT OF HER PROVINCE.

North American curling has an advantage that the rest of the world doesn't. At the present time (unless/until Mexico & South America join the party), we don't have to go through a secondary regional qualification in order to play in the World Championship. How is a new American rink supposed to get the experience of playing with a "Stars & Stripes" sweater? God knows the Maple Leaf certainly adds a few kilos to a Canadian athlete's weight (1 kilo=2.2 pounds )The saying in other sports is "The winner is determined on the ice/field". Of all the countries in the world to take what is in effect a "Socialist" approach to sports, the United States would be at the bottom of my list.

Just to compare-the team with the best regular season record has won the Stanley Cup FOUR-COUNT 'EM-FOUR times since 2000...and two of those wins were by my Red Wings.


Anyway, best of luck to "Brown Shoes"...a second or third place finish would be great for curling on both sides of the border...obviously the top step on the podium is reserved for someone else!

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quote:

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Originally posted by biterbar
How about the incentive to keeping the naysayers yaps shut about how it wasn't earned on the ice? Winning proves they were the best before, during and after the finals. That they put the time and effort in to win. And on the women's side to say we are the High Performance team whether or not we were appointed by the USCA.

As for the others the incentive is there as well, I see these games losing little competitive luster as teams and individuals have much to prove and to gain and lose in the next year and beyond. All of these games are still VERY important in determining who our next HP members and Olympians will be.

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I just find it delicious that our World's reps are going to be teams that did not emerge from the black box that is the HPP, instead being self-created and self-funded.

Yeah, Shuster had HPP money this year, but he earned his way to it last year with the same team. I don't begrudge that one bit. If it always worked that way instead of combines and biased selection, instead rewarding on the ice, the money would be fine.

Personally, I think we just fire the HPP coaches and split the budget that we blow on Derek and his cronies between the top 5 teams at Nationals. 35%/30%/20%/10%/5%.

That lets our five best teams (25 players!) per gender and age classification get funding, which they can then use to enter Canada if they want, or get better coaching if they want, or research the next hot broom, or whatever.

That also makes Nationals *matter*, all the way to the podium.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
I just find it delicious that our World's reps are going to be teams that did not emerge from the black box that is the HPP, instead being self-created and self-funded.

Yeah, Shuster had HPP money this year, but he earned his way to it last year with the same team. I don't begrudge that one bit. If it always worked that way instead of combines and biased selection, instead rewarding on the ice, the money would be fine.

Personally, I think we just fire the HPP coaches and split the budget that we blow on Derek and his cronies between the top 5 teams at Nationals. 35%/30%/20%/10%/5%.

That lets our five best teams (25 players!) per gender and age classification get funding, which they can then use to enter Canada if they want, or get better coaching if they want, or research the next hot broom, or whatever.

That also makes Nationals *matter*, all the way to the podium.

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That's what I meant.

There is a certain amount of money spent on Men's teams, Woman's teams, and Men's and Woman's Juniors...

Take the money in each of those pools (and divide the money spent on leadership, office support and etc for the entire program evenly between the 4 categories) then apply it to the top 5 teams in that category.

(Actually, in a *perfect* world, I'd cut out ~10% of it and spend that supporting at least paying for our Seniors and Mixed Reps to go to their World's as well...it shames me that people have to *PAY* to be Team USA)

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As a former American Playdown Player, I find selecting a team for worlds, before the page playoffs no less, is a jagged pill to swallow. While it is true that the high performance teams are all supremely qualified and warrant backing by the USCA.. the fact remains that with all the time, training, sponsorship, equipment, and money poured into these HP teams they should be able to beat the teams without those advantages. If they cant, it is a waste of those resources. As a result I have seen first hand the negative impact that this has had on the retention of dedicated athletes to playdown curling and the sport as a whole.

The United States Champions (in any division) have earned the right to represent their country at a world event. USCA is lying to themselves if they believe that this is best for playdowns or best for our sport in the states.

If the USCA insists on sponsoring a team that qualifies for national championships without playing down, I would recommend adopting the system that Canada uses in the Scotties. Last year's champion becomes team USA and gets the sponsorship into the tournament the following year. This would increase the incentive to win and keep winning while maintaining the competitiveness of the Finals.

Ultimately Worlds are not the Olympics. This shift in selection philosophy was a knee-jerk response to pressure for the IOC for USCA to produce results on the Olympic stage, not the World stage. Do not let the Olympics influence how you run Playdowns or your National/World teams. Let playdowns influence how you select for the Olympics.

I welcome all feedback

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quote:

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Originally posted by dbsdbs


Gotta love a national championship where both the men's and women's playoffs have nothing on the line.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fourscore
The United States Champions (in any division) have earned the right to represent their country at a world event. USCA is lying to themselves if they believe that this is best for playdowns or best for our sport in the states.

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There has been a downside to "Elite" (or in Canada's case "Pro") curling. The number of rinks that entered our national playdowns (both men and women) were at a record low. One example is Eastern Ontario. In the past there would be 4 zone playoffs held in 4 different cities (usually 1, maybe 2 in Ottawa because it contains 2 zones, plus one in cities like Cornwall or Kingston. The 4 zone winners would advance to 4 regions and from there to the provincials. This year there were so few entrants that all 4 Eastern Ontario zone playdons were held at a single, 4 sheet club in Ottawa-the RCMP Club to be exact.

We may consider ourselves fortunate to have a comprehensive junior program to feed into the adult circuit, but it definitely has an adverse effect at ground-level adult development.

As I said in my last post it sounds "Socialist"...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jimbobogie
There has been a downside to "Elite" (or in Canada's case "Pro") curling. The number of rinks that entered our national playdowns (both men and women) were at a record low.

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Holy buckets! Maybe our continuous indictment of the HPP needs its own thread?

True, this Page 1v2 may just be the Ace Of Trump when it comes to damning the current program. Face Team and B Bunch both are self-formed teams. Then we have Erika on the distaff side as well. To the credit of the current HPP powers, they seem to be open to recognize, invite and fund teams that break through on their own dime and they do not deny the obvious.

I do favor a much broader approach to supporting elite teams, but I'm saving that typing until after Nationals. I don't know if my thinking would be acceptable to the bankers at the USOC...and that is a huge criteria.

So until then, may I remind all of you that I picked Team Clark. Don't care how it finishes...I'm already claiming the pick as insightful. I don't get them all right, so I'm crowing while the sun is shining on me.

Ben Tucker

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Up here there was originally no difference because there was no "Pro" circuit per se. Rinks would enter their club playdowns every year with the dream of reaching the Brier (or Scotties) with the world championship as a bonus. When I was "of that age", we'd dream of playing Eddie Werenich (who happened to curl at our club anyway). The "Big Names" of curling were "Big" to most of us because we'd see them on TV once or twice a year.

Now, with names like Jacobs, Gushue, Koe, Homan and Jones appearing regularly on TV across Canada and the net everywhere, club curlers find themselves in a similar position as a men's recreational hockey team not wanting to get hurt by playing the Red Wings...and having to pay a few hundred dollars for the "privilege".

As the saying goes "Be careful what you wish for...you might get it!"

These new US territories are at the embryonic stage-curling is still something novel and keeping your balance is the main thing-but that will (hopefully) change as time goes by and abilities improve...but if they're only going to the Nationals in order to be "Supporting Actors", well...

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As all the spilled digital ink here and elsewhere proves there is a small but passionate set of people who care about this and yet nobody seems to be able to agree on exactly what the problem is, let alone how to fix it.

I pointed out earlier that I believe the simple solution is to completely separate the national championship from the World and Olympic representation. Gerry pointed out, all the entrants knew the rules going into Nationals and knew that they likely weren't going to Worlds even if they won the event. Knowing the rules and agreeing with them are two separate things. You have to play by the rules even if you don't think they're fair. And it seems as though, particularly on the women's side, many teams just chose not to play by the rules they didn't agree with.

Now here's the thought that I keep coming back to that I haven't really read elsewhere. The current rules violate the accepted "spirit of curling" What do I mean? I don't believe it is in the spirit of curling to root for another team to fail, yet that is exactly the position you put a team like Brady Clark in at Nationals. They can go out and win every game but still not go to Worlds as long as Shuster or Brown don't fail completely and both miss the podium. So how can they help but root for those other teams to fail? I don't think that's a fair position to put them in. You tease them with a chance, but then force them to root for someone else's failure to make that chance a reality instead of giving them the power to earn it on the ice.

I just want the USCA to "fish or cut bait" Either the Nationals is the path to Worlds or it's not. Enough of this crazy calculus that renders part of the point moot before the playoffs even begin.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jtphoto2020
Either the Nationals is the path to Worlds or it's not.

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