Registered: Feb 2014
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Check this article by Brian Belfry. The Pro Tour seems to have had an adverse effect on what used to be considered something that any Canadian could do.

http://therecord.blogs.com/in_the_h...h-the-pros.html

I'm old enough to remember that, even with folks like Doogie & The Wrench, folks would still enter at the club level for a chance to play against the Big Dogs and maybe get lucky.

It looks as if that sense of adventure is gone. They can't get full division fields.

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This is entirely normal, and totally ok in my books. Sure, a big part of curling culture has kind of up and vanished. However, in what other sport does Joe Anybody harbour unrealistic dreams of winning provincial/national/world championships? The Olympics have meant that countries are heavily invested in securing curling medals. As a result we're seeing our sport pushed to the highest level and greatest degree of entertainment in its history. That's a tradeoff I'm willing to make, as someone who is not going to put in the time and effort to become one of the best curlers in the world. New events like the Dominion Club Championship (is it called the Travelers' now?) have opened up a space for teams to keep competing with others at their level, kind of like amateur championships in other sports.

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first off, there is no 'pro tour' in curling-regardless of what any one at the WCT tries to tell you.

We can't even be laughingly considered 'semi-pro'. In a true professional sport there are no federally funded athletes. Its a level playing field where you win/get paid based on your results. Currently this playing field does not exist.

Second, if we were professional, a large majority of teams could make a living playing the sport. This also doesn't exist.

In the past 40 years little has changed in competitive curling. Average entry fees are still the same as then as is the average purse. Team entry fees still make up 65-70% of an events prize money pool while, on average, only 20-25% of the field makes the money round.

Third, compared to 20 years ago, there are fewer competitive events in the WCT and, when you remove the slam events from the schedule, less overall money.

And I say remove the slams because they weren't present 20 years ago and they cater to small, 16 or fewer, team field size.

Pro tour? what pro tour?

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You list 5 teams. 5 teams making some money does not make a profession. Also, not sure why you feel that this is tax free? I am not Canadian, so perhaps tax laws are different up north, but in the US this would definitely be taxed.

But remember that the purse won does not equal complete profit. There are travel expenses which add up quickly, do you pay a coach, do you pay a physical trainer. And if it were a profession, then you have other real world issues (aka benefits) that need to be paid for like insurance, retirement funding etc. Then there is the fact that at best this "profession has at most 6 months of earning potential. Take your best case example, $10K per person per month. If this was in the USA, this would amount to about a $50K per year job, a decent living of course. But not the type of job that would pay for the mount of travel you would need to succeed. And this is for the most profitable team.

Of course, that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

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Curling is going through an evolution from amateur into more pro status and there are always going to be growing pains associated with it.

The Olympics has drastically changed the sport, giving the best teams the opportunity to work towards professional status as it's what's now required to keep up with the best in the world.

Hockey went through the same thing, where a playdown system was previously in place for the World Championships and Olympics, which evolved into an amateur National Team Program and eventually into allowing professional players to compete. Hockey seems to be doing just fine for it.

Curling has never seen this much television coverage which drives revenues for the teams as a lot of sponsorship is derived from bonuses for appearing on television games. While Tour purses have been somewhat stagnant (though Grand Slams are changing that), the sponsorship revenues for these teams has grown to a point that they can focus on curling full time during the season.

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quote:

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Originally posted by curlky
You list 5 teams. 5 teams making some money does not make a profession. Also, not sure why you feel that this is tax free? I am not Canadian, so perhaps tax laws are different up north, but in the US this would definitely be taxed.

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I'm wondering just how much those independent sponsors are providing? While it may look good at these events, once they get to the Brier or World Championships (or Olympics) all bets-and sweater patches) are off.

I'm noticing that more and more rinks are using sweater numbers, like hockey players-couldn't that space be put to better use with more sponsorships? Curling is a sport that hardly needs sweater numbers-it's more like golf than hockey.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry


There was a court case where Wayne Middaugh and teammates went to court over unreported earnings and this was the decision at the end of it.

As fresca mentioned, it would be a losing proposition for the CRA if they were to tax winnings as every team on tour that loses money could write off those losses as well.

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I believe that's the reason CRA sniffed around the tree then moved on...

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First, if you want to claim expenses, you have to show that there is a high chance you will win money. The CRA will not allow Joe Schmoe to claim expenses.

Second, there is more to the Middaugh case than most people know.

The CRA was not singling out and picking on Middaugh.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CaptMorgan
First, if you want to claim expenses, you have to show that there is a high chance you will win money. The CRA will not allow Joe Schmoe to claim expenses.

Second, there is more to the Middaugh case than most people know.

The CRA was not singling out and picking on Middaugh.

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I recall discussing with semi-pro poker guys that essentially Revenue Canada expects you to pay taxes on "winnings" if it is your primary source of income. This is a reason that nearly any poker player or curler in this country will also have a "regular" job.

Interestingly, purses aren't much better than they were 20 years ago. In fact, considering inflation, many are worse today. Heck, they used to play in Car Spiels! However, CCA/Canada Sport funding and corporate sponsorship has much improved.

In 1995 Kerry Burtnyk won the Brier. I recall they had no or limited sponsorship to start the season and lost $10,000, after travel and expenses. This despite playing in bonspiels with similar purses to today.

It's still a battle, but not close to what it once was. As Gerry says, the more TV the merrier (for sponsors).

Happy Festivus!

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Oh, and on the original topic of a "fallout".

The new level of elite teams is, in my estimation, only one reason for declining entries in zones.

We've had an elite level in the top provinces for many years, long before this "fallout" began. Only 4 teams not named Martin, Ferbey, Ryan, Lukowich or Koe have won Alberta since 1983. Ontario has only had 7 non-Howard, Werenich, Morris, Middaugh champions in 35 years. One was Mike Harris (Olympic Silver Medal), one was Peter Corner (longtime lead for Team Russ Howard).

Less juniors equals less older players. Older stalwarts are packing it in and not enough players and teams to fill their seats. Demographics is still the primary issue with this sport. But if growth in Asia takes off (and it very well could), it won't likely matter much anyway. Our best will be heading there to play on their tours, a la Euros in the NHL.

圣诞节快乐

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I mean, i have always thought and never understood why curlers cant make a living out of this when you can for virtually anything else. but i think this move needs to be done in a way that doesnt discourage teams from forming and younger curlers from continuing on after juniors. I feel like thats kind of whats happening now. not with everyone but its definitely happening. i also feel like the relegation at the brier and scotties is going to add to that. i was having a conversation with a man at a robins donuts and we were watching the womens world championship a couple years ago and he asked me why these athletes do this. why do they compete . my answer was because of this, because of the world championship. you feel like you have accomplished something. i feel like if that opportunity is taken away then people will start asking why. I personally dont love the idea of pool but if its the alternative to relegation i'd take that over relegation. maybe a team from PEI never will win the brier but they have the right to hope for it.

i also feel like something needs to be done to help lower ranked teams get into the slams and get used to arena ice. i liked the idea of having a second tier event at slams . right now i do believe slams are a good thing but also part of the problem. getting into slams is a reward almost for hard work but not every team has the time and money to travel every other week and earn the points to make the slams.

there are good things happening in curling and positive changes being made but there's also still some problems that need to be worked out. im 50/50 on this shift myself.

Last edited by misty1 on 12-25-14 at 05:20PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


Misty - I have no idea what you mean by 50/50. That's kinda wishy-washy immo . . .
Personally, I'd like to see a series of regional tourneys in almost all provinces where the Top 12 to 16 Canadian mens teams are excluded. The remaining entry (24 to 32 teams) are composed of open entries from any province and the prize monies are decent, maybe even a car spiel (leases) BUT the winner gets auto-berthed into a WTA tour event. Thus, by decree you'll get more competition for the right to take on the monsters - perhaps eventually becoming one yourself!

The ladies is probably not as inviting. After the top 4 or 5 Canadian ladies teams there's a real drop-down in talent - - - Jones, Homan, Sweeting, Middaugh, Anderson - if you exclude the top 12 to 14 ladies teams you're really running a fawn-fest but hey, why not? Try it out, see what happens!

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Unlike golf, curling does not have international sponsors who put up millions each week-and golfers don't have to split their money 4 ways (just pay the caddie his percentage). Curling also cannot fill even the smallest arena due to the fact that fans get a better show on TV.

Canada simply does not have enough major corporate sponsors available anymore-free trade has taken many jobs to places where they've never heard of the game-and never will.

If any money is going to be generated in the future it is going to have to come (I believe I've said this before) from the USA-and the USA, although showing some growth now, won't really jump on the curling bandwagon until (unless) they see Olympic Gold. That's why I keep asking about competitive teams from South of the Border-I'm not being disloyal to Canada, I'm looking for Americans who can actually win-not just show up (I'm gonna get hell for that comment) and get American busine$$' attention.

As for global recognition-Asia has 3 countries that can compete-but they only have 2 spots in the Worlds. There's only one dedicated curling club south of the equator (New Zealand) and, although their "Canadian-Kiwis" were runners-up in the Seniors a couple of years ago, their seasons are backwards and it's a heckofalongway to the next-nearest country (check the map-Australia is not exactly "next door") and the Aussies curl on hockey ice. I've mentioned it before-Asia and the Pacific should not be combined-we need to see either Kangaroos or Kiwis (doing the Hakka) at the worlds.

Flame away...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jimbobogie
Unlike golf, curling does not have international sponsors who put up millions each week-and golfers don't have to split their money 4 ways (just pay the caddie his percentage). Curling also cannot fill even the smallest arena due to the fact that fans get a better show on TV.

Canada simply does not have enough major corporate sponsors available anymore-free trade has taken many jobs to places where they've never heard of the game-and never will.

If any money is going to be generated in the future it is going to have to come (I believe I've said this before) from the USA-and the USA, although showing some growth now, won't really jump on the curling bandwagon until (unless) they see Olympic Gold. That's why I keep asking about competitive teams from South of the Border-I'm not being disloyal to Canada, I'm looking for Americans who can actually win-not just show up (I'm gonna get hell for that comment) and get American busine$$' attention.

As for global recognition-Asia has 3 countries that can compete-but they only have 2 spots in the Worlds. There's only one dedicated curling club south of the equator (New Zealand) and, although their "Canadian-Kiwis" were runners-up in the Seniors a couple of years ago, their seasons are backwards and it's a heckofalongway to the next-nearest country (check the map-Australia is not exactly "next door") and the Aussies curl on hockey ice. I've mentioned it before-Asia and the Pacific should not be combined-we need to see either Kangaroos or Kiwis (doing the Hakka) at the worlds.

Flame away...

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Last edited by misty1 on 12-26-14 at 08:11PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


U.S.A. Curling is a perfect example of where club curlers can still get to the Olympics!

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It worked pretty damned well...

It's not a coincidence that the decline of US curling coincides almost perfectly with the increase of USA Curling's "We have to focus our resources on fewer teams, and make sure they are the ones protected to represetnt us at Worlds" approach.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
It worked pretty damned well...

It's not a coincidence that the decline of US curling coincides almost perfectly with the increase of USA Curling's "We have to focus our resources on fewer teams, and make sure they are the ones protected to represetnt us at Worlds" approach.

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Those countries needed to do that because there was no base to work from. They couldn't just throw a nationals and let the winners go, because they had no teams to speak of, no clubs to work from (at least not many).

On the other hand, the USCA has the 2nd most curlers in the world, and it had demonstrated success with the "Regionals to NAtionals to Worlds" method.

No one is saying that they should not spend money on coaches and the like. Great, find the good teams and shower them with resources...rock on. However...make those teams *prove* that they are the best on the ice by exposing them to qualifiers, to the Crucible of a Real Nationals (as opposed to what we have now, where the top two teams just know they have to come in top 4 and beat the other and voila, they are fitted in Red White and Blue).

More importantly, *CHILL OUT*. There's 10 nations who curl at a level well enough to make it to the Olympics. On average, that means we should get a Gold once every 20 years. A Medal should come about once every 8 years (across both genders). We won our last one...hey...look...less than a decade ago...

Two Olympics without a medal does not require rehashing the entire program and protecting the chosen team even more. YEt that is what they are doing. It ain't gonna help.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry


Would suggest it has a lot more to do with the professionalization of the rest of the curling world. China, Japan and Korea all have become curling powers, Russia is strong in the women's game and improving in the men's, Scotland, Sweden and Norway send full-time curling athletes. Switzerland uses a points system to ensure teams are competing against the best teams in the World. Even countries like Denmark and Czech Republic have posted strong Worlds results recently.

It's these countries that are spending MORE on curling within their countries and having MORE control over how their teams are put together that are having sustained success at the International level.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Those countries needed to do that because there was no base to work from. They couldn't just throw a nationals and let the winners go, because they had no teams to speak of, no clubs to work from (at least not many).

On the other hand, the USCA has the 2nd most curlers in the world, and it had demonstrated success with the "Regionals to NAtionals to Worlds" method.

No one is saying that they should not spend money on coaches and the like. Great, find the good teams and shower them with resources...rock on. However...make those teams *prove* that they are the best on the ice by exposing them to qualifiers, to the Crucible of a Real Nationals (as opposed to what we have now, where the top two teams just know they have to come in top 4 and beat the other and voila, they are fitted in Red White and Blue).

More importantly, *CHILL OUT*. There's 10 nations who curl at a level well enough to make it to the Olympics. On average, that means we should get a Gold once every 20 years. A Medal should come about once every 8 years (across both genders). We won our last one...hey...look...less than a decade ago...

Two Olympics without a medal does not require rehashing the entire program and protecting the chosen team even more. YEt that is what they are doing. It ain't gonna help.

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quote:

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Originally posted by misty1


i wouldnt really call any of the asian countries "curling powers". that would imply that they are consistently at the top of the game and challenging for world medals and even gold and thats just not the case. china really only had 3 good years on the womens side and the men, while coming close to a medal have not yet grabbed even one and are more often than not middle of the pack teams instead of actual contenders. korea is to inconsistent and japan..well what exactly have they done. moe meguro is the only memorable japanese team at worlds in recent memory. that team really should have been in the final and who knows from there in 2008.but even they only had the one good year

they are getting better and they might one day be powers but you most certainly can not classify them as world powers yet.unless your definition of power is very loose.

and you sound kind of surprised about denmark having strong world results lately but are you maybe forgetting that they have a world champion on the womens side and have had decent results on the mens side before this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry


Take a closer look at what the Asian women's countries are doing. Korea, Japan and China are either winning or qualifying regularly in Tour events. The men are still playing catchup, but the Chinese Men showed in the Olympics they're on the verge of a big breakthrough and the Japanese/Koreans aren't far behind with the amount of travel they put in.

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Last edited by misty1 on 12-28-14 at 11:22PM

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