Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 76

Curling teams in Canada are formed with the idea of going to the Brier/Scotties. That means all teams must conform to provincial residence requirements. That means Canada cannot put together the best possible teams. Name one other international teams sports that restricts their members in this way. A Canadian team, playing in an international competition should be made up of the best Canadian players.

Last edited by Frozencanuck on 04-07-23 at 12:00PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587

Send the top 15 world teams to the worlds every year, including 4-6 Canadian teams, and see how Canada does. The advantage an Edin or Mouat or even someone like Retorunaz have being able to get year after year of international experience cannot be matched when people like Dunstone need to win a Brier or Trials first. With no international scope parity the current system of 1 team per country is just anti-Canada.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

You might be right, but I tend to think that it might be a lazy opinion. Lets take Gushue. If he were not locked by Province, how would he change the team? Who would he cut and who would he pick up? Is there an obvious answer? Is EJ a step down from Brett as an example.

If I asked you to make any Canadian teams you wanted to, how would you form the top handful of teams?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 245

quote:

---

Originally posted by oliviertoisel
Send the top 15 world teams to the worlds every year, including 4-6 Canadian teams, and see how Canada does. The advantage an Edin or Mouat or even someone like Retorunaz have being able to get year after year of international experience cannot be matched when people like Dunstone need to win a Brier or Trials first. With no international scope parity the current system of 1 team per country is just anti-Canada.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 76

If Allstar selection means anything, consider these two teams. Matt Dunstone, BJ Neufeld, Brett Gallant, Ben Hebert. The other Allstar team was Brad Gushue, Tyler Tardi, Brent Laing, and Geoff Walker

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dangermouse


That’s because the players are representing a country and playing under the flag. They’re not playing for themselves.


In the FIFA World Cup, you can make about 3 teams worth of Brazilian players that would qualify for the tournament, but that’s not allowed either.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2022
Location: Canada
Posts: 154

quote:

---

Originally posted by oliviertoisel


The world cup happens every 4 years. I'm fine with the Olympics having 1 team. But the worlds are not representative of the sport as they are now. And I think it hurts the sport when several of your top teams aren't even in competition. There's a reason the slams don't do this.

And it's not just a Canadian problem. It kills growth world wide. Countries just make one team and let them do everything. If you're a Swedish curler and want to dream of playing in an Olympics you can forget about it unless Nik Edin picks you. Scotland had to be strong armed into letting the very very good Ross Patterson near a worlds.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 76

Back to curling. If I was an elite player (god help us), I would form the best team I could without regards to residency, curl the world curling tour, ignore provincial play downs and go for one of the 3 wildcard teams at the Scotties, or Brier. Wild card teams, like Team Canada, are not bound by provincial residency.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frozencanuck
Wild card teams, like Team Canada, are not bound by provincial residency.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2022
Location: Canada
Posts: 154

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frozencanuck
Back to curling. If I was an elite player (god help us), I would form the best team I could without regards to residency, curl the world curling tour, ignore provincial play downs and go for one of the 3 wildcard teams at the Scotties, or Brier. Wild card teams, like Team Canada, are not bound by provincial residency.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 76

I know Team Canada has no residency rules, Curl Canada will get to thinking about wild cars, when a good team challenges them!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523

We should start a new thread reiterating the history of all wildcard teams there ever were. There hasn't been that many.

My understanding is that initially, when it was first proposed, it was mentioned that maybe it should only be eligible for teams that lost a provincial final (i.e. WC1 Team Lawes & WC3 Team Walter both out of MB at 2023 Scotties wouldn't have been possible, and the play-in game in 2020 was Fleury vs Jones who were both from MB, so who knows if this version was ever implemented). I think eventually it was understood that you only had to register for a provincial playdown, you didn't even have to compete in it (hence WC1 Team Gushue at 2022 Brier).

Cancellations due to COVID-19 made things a bit complicated, but I think every wildcard team that ever was can trace its eligibility to their participation/registration in the last provincial playdown held in a province, with one exception. I believe WC2 Team Zacharias at 2021 Scotties never participated in any MB Scotties playdown (2021 was not held, and in 2020 they were winning World Junior), and got in strictly on CTRS.

I could be wrong, though. Like I said, I think we should start a new thread and gather all the facts. No opinions, just facts with references that can be checked.

//edit: I forgot that 2018 Brier wildcard play-in game was McEwen vs Gunnlaugson, both eliminated in MB playdown. And 2018 was the first time wildcard was introduced. So no, I don't think it was ever required that you had to be a loser at a provincial final to be eligible for wildcard.

Last edited by curlingclips on 04-08-23 at 05:46PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 245

quote:

---

Originally posted by oliviertoisel


The world cup happens every 4 years. I'm fine with the Olympics having 1 team. But the worlds are not representative of the sport as they are now. And I think it hurts the sport when several of your top teams aren't even in competition. There's a reason the slams don't do this.

And it's not just a Canadian problem. It kills growth world wide. Countries just make one team and let them do everything. If you're a Swedish curler and want to dream of playing in an Olympics you can forget about it unless Nik Edin picks you. Scotland had to be strong armed into letting the very very good Ross Patterson near a worlds.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 76

But it doesn’t work. If Curl Canada had not winked at team Canada in the Brier, either Harden or Walker wouldn’t be there, One of them would have been replaced by a NL player and there is a good chance Gushue would not be at the worlds. Curl Canada just acknowledged that residency rules limit the talent

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2022
Location: Canada
Posts: 154

If you want to see the best canadian teams competing with the worlds best, then just check out the Players Championship, it starts on Tuesday.
You have all the playoff teams from this week, plus four Canadian teams, another Scottish and American team.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2023
Location:
Posts: 24

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frozencanuck
But it doesn’t work. If Curl Canada had not winked at team Canada in the Brier, either Harden or Walker wouldn’t be there, One of them would have been replaced by a NL player and there is a good chance Gushue would not be at the worlds. Curl Canada just acknowledged that residency rules limit the talent

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 245

quote:

---

Originally posted by myhouse911
If you want to see the best canadian teams competing with the worlds best, then just check out the Players Championship, it starts on Tuesday.
You have all the playoff teams from this week, plus four Canadian teams, another Scottish and American team.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2009
Location:
Posts: 338

quote:

---

Originally posted by myhouse911
If you want to see the best canadian teams competing with the worlds best, then just check out the Players Championship, it starts on Tuesday.
You have all the playoff teams from this week, plus four Canadian teams, another Scottish and American team.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 76

quote:

---

Originally posted by naterock_11
Is that what you want? I'm just asking, no judgment. For Gushue/Nichols to be hamstrung by the fact they play for Newfoundland? People are salty they've skirted the residency rules by winning the Brier, but let's look at it in the opposite direction. Do you want to lose Gushue/Nichols because they're from Newfoundland? Force them to join other provinces because they're from a small one?

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dangermouse


What David Murdoch should do is copy the formula that won Olympic gold for our women last year. Get a group of about 20 of the top players into a training camp and practice with different combinations of players until he finds a winning team. Then hand pick them to play at the worlds.

---

Last edited by oliviertoisel on 04-09-23 at 11:57AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2019
Location:
Posts: 659

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dangermouse

What David Murdoch should do is copy the formula that won Olympic gold for our women last year. Get a group of about 20 of the top players into a training camp and practice with different combinations of players until he finds a winning team. Then hand pick them to play at the worlds.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 245

quote:

---

Originally posted by oliviertoisel


I don't get this. It just does not apply to Canada. This will peeve people but I think FAR too much weight is being put on Eve Murihead's random gold medal than should be. It was mostly luck (which you need talent to get). That's not a knock on Muirhead, a truly great curler, but a comment on the specific Olympics and medal. She had a very mediocre week and then ran into two very very very poor playoff opponents. Alina Patz curled 74% (!!!!) in the semi and Fujisawa 69% (!!!!!!!!!) in the final. UK had a good final but their semi performance (83%) would've lost them that game almost every other year. The real Scottish talent is Mouat's team and they were NOT created using the Muirhead fluke system.

People are just so frothy over the Olympics they seem to place too much importance on systems based on one random outcome.

But back to Canada: this system doesn't work because we have competitive teams trying to be pro. Canadian teams cannot afford this pool system. They need to be on very very good teams and compete in spiels. Things like the Brier/Scotties also include major major funding. You can't just forego that by playing with a pool of players. It makes no sense. And I think Scotland knows that because they don't do it with Mouat or mixed doubles, just their absolutely flailing women's program in the last few years. Plus Canada just doesn't need it. Gushue has at least won silver at every worlds, an Olympic gold and an Olympic bronze (which he got after a very very close semi loss versus a very very good Edin, who had hammer). Koe won silver in 2019. Only Bottcher didn't medal (and Koe in the 2018 Olympics, where he was 4th). Those are great results. On the women's side...we have a team capable they just can't win a semi. This crazy system is not needed.

I want to see curling as a self sustaining sport not some experiment for national bodies, kept alive on random life support.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dangermouse


GB beat Sweden in the semi final, not Switzerland.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2023
Location:
Posts: 5

Canada may be at a disadvantage in international curling due to its limited exposure to top-tier play outside ovo game of North America.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523

Sportsnet on YouTube is livestreaming parts of 2023 Players Championship for free outside of Canada with no commercials, airing player interviews instead. In one of those interviews, a Canadian team admitted that they've now taken "draw to the button" (LSD) more seriously, and they're starting to actually practice how to do it as a team. As a 4-person team, that is.

Meanwhile, the international teams have perfected the pre-game practice and LSD as 7-person teams (which is 100% allowed by WCF, in case you're wondering).

This is one handicap for Canada, in my opinion. Including the coach, Team Gushue is basically a 5-person team most of the year. Some international teams are 7-person teams with team coach, national coach, and alternate for most of the year.

Team Canada is probably also doing 7-person pre-game practice, based on snippets and photos I've seen (I specifically remember a photo from 2021 World Men's of Marc Kennedy carrying at least 7 brooms), but obviously it's only on special occasions instead of something they're actually doing routinely.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged