|
Disclaimer: CurlingZone does not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any Content posted on any Forums area and you acknowledge that any reliance upon such Content shall be at your sole risk. Any Content placed on any Forums area by users and anonymous posters are the views of the user posting the statement, and do not represent the views of CurlingZone or our partners, advertisers or sponsors. By posting anonymously, you are allowing your IP address to be displayed for identification purposes. CurlingZone reserves the right to remove any post at its discretion without warning or explanation.
| 01-01-22 09:14PM |
|
curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
We have an obvious and logical solution staring right at us. The MD CTRS.
You are confusing the goal and the mean to achieve that goal.
If a team consistently earns medals for Canada, then ideally they should be ranked high on CMDR.
If a team is ranked high on CMDR, that does not guarantee consistency of earning medals, because we don't even know for sure yet if we have the right formula for CMDR.
The lessons learned from the 1987 Canadian curling trial demonstrates this: curlers were tested and measured on a bunch of things that many people thought were irrelevant (Ed Werenich infamously was told to lose some body weight).
Yes, it's 2021 now and CMDR does not contain body weight measurement, thank goodness, but that's no guarantee that CMDR is perfect for achieving our goal, which I assume is to medal at the Olympics.
Now if the goal is to evaluate CMDR and see if it does indeed produce medals, or if the goal is to generate the most revenue with the highest TV rating, etc., then we can explore other ideas.
But, from what I understand, the goal is to get a medal for Canada in the mixed doubles curling discipline.
Walker/Muyres has already earned 3 medals for Canada in the mixed doubles curling discipline, the most out of any Canadian mixed doubles team in history. And all 3 of those medals were earned during this Olympic cycle. That is the better predictor for medaling in 2022 than CMDR, in my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
We have an obvious and logical solution staring right at us. The MD CTRS.
This is like saying the moral thing to do is to follow what the bible says.
It would be nice if following the bible does lead to moral decisions, but there's no guarantee that it actually does.
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
if we're not going to use it, then what good is it? And why waste time or money on it?
This is perfect example of sunk cost fallacy. If CMDR turns out to be useless (I'm not saying that it is), then we should get rid of it. Who cares that we've invested time and money.
In my opinion, CMDR is not that bad, especially compared to 1987 debacle. But we should never see CMDR as the perfectly flawless thing either, no matter how much time and money had been invested.
Last edited by curlingclips on 01-01-22 at 10:25PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-01-22 09:42PM |
|
jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
I'm not confusing anything. If Walker/Muyres were the best choice then they'd be higher ranked.
They aren't. So Martin/Griffiths are the best choice as the next highest ranked team in the present.
But please, continue your endless tub thumping for Walker/Muyres. Its amusing.
Oh, and just to clarify it was 1987, not 97 that Werenich and Savage were forced to unnecessarily lose weight. I should know, I played in the event and using that example lends no street cred to your argument.
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
Last edited by jamcan on 01-01-22 at 09:45PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-01-22 09:48PM |
|
curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Oh, and just to clarify it was 1987, not 97 that Werenich and Savage were forced to unnecessarily lose weight.
Thanks for pointing this out! I've corrected my post to say 1987.
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
endless tub thumping for Walker/Muyres
I wasn't rooting for Walkers/Muyres specifically. Sahaidak/Lott represented Canada twice, and earned 1 gold medal. Had they earned 2 gold medals, then I'd say that's probably better than the gold/silver/bronze trifecta medals that Walker/Muyres earned.
Here's another way to look at it.
Imagine an alternate universe where some Team X earned 10 gold medals for Canada in mixed doubles curling discipline during this Olympic cycle. I think we'll all agree that Team X probably has the best chance of medaling in 2022.
On the other hand, imagine an alternate universe where CMDR has remnants of 1987 and it includes things like body weight measurement, IQ test, and whatever else they did back then. I think we'll all agree that this CMDR probably needs some tweaking if the goal is to predict who has the best chance at medaling for Canada.
These of course are extreme examples. In our universe, things aren't so clear-cut, which is why people have lots of different ideas.
Last edited by curlingclips on 01-02-22 at 06:29AM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 10:12AM |
|
oliviertoisel
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587 |
The problem with CMDR is that it's currently skewed to teams competing a lot in 2021 to get into the Trials and not an even representation of the discipline.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 10:28AM |
|
curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
I'm not confusing anything. If Walker/Muyres were the best choice then they'd be higher ranked.
The rankings are not accurate, especially in a pandemic, as not all teams have played equal events, and really not even close. If all teams played in basically the same events, then I would go with rankings, but this is not what happened.
The rankings were a system to "fairly" determine who would get into a playdown. So the goal was not to be highest ranking, just get in. And if you were already in (ie Einarson) then you had no motivation to work on your rankings, as you had achieved your goal of getting into the playdown.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 01:05PM |
|
jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
The rankings are not accurate, especially in a pandemic, as not all teams have played equal events, and really not even close. If all teams played in basically the same events, then I would go with rankings, but this is not what happened.
The rankings were a system to "fairly" determine who would get into a playdown. So the goal was not to be highest ranking, just get in. And if you were already in (ie Einarson) then you had no motivation to work on your rankings, as you had achieved your goal of getting into the playdown.
You're correct. However we are in a pandemic and there is no competition is there? Given that fact, we then use the ranking system to determine the representative as it provides objective data, not subjective data which is based on personal preferences and prejudices.
And look, teams made choices to compete in events. If athletes chose a 4 man event instead of a MD then who's responsibility is that? Using the 'equal events' argument is just a weak excuse.
Martin/Griffiths worked hard and focused on MD. The others did not. I'd much rather have a dedicated MD team with current accomplishments and experience under their belts then a team that's given lip service to the event and gets in based less on ability than likeability.
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 01:49PM |
|
hogged again
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2019
Location:
Posts: 659 |
It should be noted that it is not Curl Canada alone making the decision. They said they will be making the decision in consultation with Own the Podium and the Canadian Olympic Committee. So the points will just be one factor and I suspect a minor one.
OtP and CoC will prefer players with previous Olympic experience and CC will go along because it's the safest pick and least criticism if it doesn't work out.
Homan/Morris.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 02:22PM |
|
curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by hogged again
OtP and CoC will prefer players with previous Olympic experience
I don't buy this.
In an alternate universe where Sahaidak/Lott won 2021 Canadian Mixed Doubles Championship and went on to win gold at 2021 World Mixed Doubles Curling Championship, I bet OtP/COC would pick Sahaidak/Lott, despite their lack of previous Olympic experience.
International experience representing Canada matters, not just Olympics. Earning medals also matters, especially for an entity called "Own the Podium".
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 06:31PM |
|
hogged again
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2019
Location:
Posts: 659 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
I don't buy this.
In an alternate universe where Sahaidak/Lott won 2021 Canadian Mixed Doubles Championship and went on to win gold at 2021 World Mixed Doubles Curling Championship, I bet OtP/COC would pick Sahaidak/Lott, despite their lack of previous Olympic experience.
International experience representing Canada matters, not just Olympics. Earning medals also matters, especially for an entity called "Own the Podium".
OK since you are such a stickler for commas and crossed ts I'll try to be clearer.
We are talking about the REALITY of this year. There is no alternate universe where some team has won internationally and clearly separated themselves from the other teams. Also no MD team has dominated the Canadian bonspiels. If one team had, then yes, maybe they get sent but they haven't. In that REALITY, I contend that OtP and COC will prefer sending a team with previous Olympic experience. That's Homan/Morris.
If it was me, I'd ask Lawes if she wanted to play the MD. If she said yes (and she would, she's a gamer) then I would ask Gushue, Kennedy, Gallant and Nichols in that order to be the teammate since all will already be in China.
Last edited by hogged again on 01-02-22 at 06:33PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 07:43PM |
|
IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
I agree that between CC, OTP, and COC, they will not select the top seed team with the most points earned. They will pick a pair of popular experienced curlers to save face if for some reason they don’t win a medal. Pick the face to save face, and a built in excuse to keep their jobs.
“Well we picked who we thought was the best and most recognizable and experienced to bring home the almighty medal, not according to all the prerequisites for other teams”
Why have national standings if they literally mean absolutely nothing. Yeah yeah yeah some didn’t play much in the pandemic. Some concentrated on 4 person teams. That was THEIR choice. Why should they then benefit from not doing so when many teams actually tried to play and earn points, especially the MD specialists?
I say pick the top ranked MD team. Whomever it is regardless of popularity and “face” of curling.
Go Canada Go.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 08:22PM |
|
curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by hogged again
the REALITY of this year
Olympic is a quadrennial. Why limit your option only to this year, which is anomalous to begin with due to pandemic?
The reality of this universe is that during this entire Olympic quadrennial cycle (2018-2022), Walker/Muyres has already separated themselves as the only mixed doubles team that has represented Canada at international events sanctioned by WCF at three separate occasions, earning a medal every single time they go.
If you want to hire someone to do X, you should hire a candidate who has consistently done X lately (aka What Have You Done for Me Lately?).
So if you want to chose a mixed doubles team to represent Canada at the Olympics -- an event that happens every 4 years -- and try to earn a medal, then you look at the resume of all teams that has represented Canada and earned medals during this 4 years, and put strong consideration for those that has earned multiple medals.
There is only one such team, and that is Walker/Muyres. No other mixed doubles team in history has ever earned multiple medals for Canada, and Walker/Muyres did it three times in one Olympic cycle.
-----------------------------------------
See: https://results.worldcurling.org/Association/Details/7
In 13 years, Canada has earned 8 mixed doubles medals total. Walker/Muyres singlehandedly earned 3 of those medals in one season.
Last edited by curlingclips on 01-02-22 at 09:46PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 10:03PM |
|
hogged again
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2019
Location:
Posts: 659 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
Olympic is a quadrennial. Why limit your option only to this year, which is anomalous to begin with due to pandemic?
The reality of this universe is that during this entire Olympic quadrennial cycle (2018-2022), Walker/Muyres has already separated themselves as the only mixed doubles team that has represented Canada at international events sanctioned by WCF at three separate occasions, earning a medal every single time they go.
If you want to hire someone to do X, you should hire a candidate who has consistently done X lately (aka What Have You Done for Me Lately?).
So if you want to chose a mixed doubles team to represent Canada at the Olympics -- an event that happens every 4 years -- and try to earn a medal, then you look at the resume of all teams that has represented Canada and earned medals during this 4 years, and put strong consideration for those that has earned multiple medals.
There is only one such team, and that is Walker/Muyres. No other mixed doubles team in history has ever earned multiple medals for Canada, and Walker/Muyres did it three times in one Olympic cycle.
-----------------------------------------
See: https://results.worldcurling.org/Association/Details/7
In 13 years, Canada has earned 8 mixed doubles medals total. Walker/Muyres singlehandedly earned 3 of those medals in one season.
**sigh**This and other posts show you are just deliberately obtuse cuz you like to argue. So I will put this as simply as I can and then move on.
What I am saying is OtP and COC are going to put HUGE emphasis on a team where players have previous olympic experience. Period. I'm not debating who or what team has done what, I am simply saying that the criteria that will be the most important to them is olympic experience. OtP and the COC's mission is the olympics. That is what they do and that is what they value and that is what is most important to them.
Now pick a part of one sentence I wrote, deliberately misconstrue it and make your point again.
Last edited by hogged again on 01-02-22 at 10:10PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 10:30PM |
|
curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
I concede that I know nothing about OtP and COC, and that they may have different goals than what I have in mind.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-02-22 11:33PM |
|
scottb
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2018
Location:
Posts: 12 |
I say put the 16 teams that were to be in Portage at trials in a hat and draw 1 out. That's who will go to Olympics! They all had a chance to win. Doesn't matter if they have been to the Olympics before or not.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-03-22 12:15PM |
|
alex
Swing Artist
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Quesnel
Posts: 420 |
I agree Olympic experience not that important. Homan's experience wasn't good. It is still curling.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-03-22 05:42PM |
|
Curlwalker
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 109 |
Warm up for Scots
Interesting lead up to the olympics for the Scots (team GB). Looks like in this weeks mixed doubles all of Mouat's team are paired up with all of Muirhead's team (including the alternates). Good to provide competition for Mouat/Dodds as well as keep the rest of the team practicing and sharp I guess.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-04-22 01:03PM |
|
Hack Weight
Hitting Paint
Registered: Dec 2014
Location: Alberta
Posts: 131 |
Heroux reporting that the process to select the team has begun. I would hope so considering the first game is February 5.
It’ll be Morris/Homan unless one of them declined or was unable to go. Debate if that’s correct all we want, but that’ll be it. Easy to defend the decision (past Olympians, Morris the defending champion, inarguably two of the best curlers in Canada). The conglomerate of decision makers aren’t selecting teams based on CC’s convoluted MD points system that most teams, once qualified for the trials, had no reason to put any importance on said rankings.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-04-22 03:07PM |
|
curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
Mike Harris reported during one of the slam games commentary that he was told by Joe Polo that had Matt Hamilton made it to playoff at the mixed doubles tournament in 2018, Polo would've subbed for Hamilton during the early part of the men's tournament, to let Hamilton recover.
Nothing was said about Becca Hamilton, but it seemed like it was understood by Team USA that double duty is tough on the athletes. USA of course did not make it into playoff in mixed doubles, so they had a few days of rest before the men's/women's tournaments, but Oskar Eriksson and Bruce Mouat/Jenn Dodds are probably medal favorites.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-04-22 03:11PM |
|
hogged again
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2019
Location:
Posts: 659 |
quote:
Originally posted by Hack Weight
Heroux reporting that the process to select the team has begun. I would hope so considering the first game is February 5.
The process was complicated by the difficulty of taking orders and arranging 75 simultaneous skipthedishes deliveries to all the participants of the zoom call.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-04-22 07:05PM |
|
Hack Weight
Hitting Paint
Registered: Dec 2014
Location: Alberta
Posts: 131 |
quote:
Originally posted by hogged again
The process was complicated by the difficulty of taking orders and arranging 75 simultaneous skipthedishes deliveries to all the participants of the zoom call.
Haha the amount of useless meetings, focus groups and sheer number of people involved in this process I’m sure is astounding. The decision needs to be made within days. Whomever is chosen needs to quasi-bubble themselves for a couple weeks to practice and ensure they can get on the plane to China.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-04-22 08:49PM |
|
oliviertoisel
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587 |
Who should be involved? I'm always amazed at what people get outraged over. If a couple people alone made the decision that would the outrage.
This is a tough and meaningful decision. I sincerely hope they're having multiple meetings. And you're nuts if you thing there's funding for free meals every time you have a meeting in the public or semi-public sector.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-04-22 09:57PM |
|
Observer
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: River Falls, WI, USA
Posts: 445 |
Could they do something like this… identify the top three or five eligible teams based on their results over the entire quad, then compare their head-to-head records and maybe also records against common opponents. See if there’s a clear leader when you look at them that way, and if there is, they’re the Olympic team.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-04-22 10:51PM |
|
hogged again
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2019
Location:
Posts: 659 |
quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
Who should be involved? I'm always amazed at what people get outraged over. If a couple people alone made the decision that would the outrage.
This is a tough and meaningful decision. I sincerely hope they're having multiple meetings. And you're nuts if you thing there's funding for free meals every time you have a meeting in the public or semi-public sector.
Lighten up dude it's a joke about bloated wasteful government bureaucracies not outrage. Sheesh.
Last edited by hogged again on 01-04-22 at 10:55PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 01-05-22 01:34AM |
|
alex
Swing Artist
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Quesnel
Posts: 420 |
No matter who they pick if they do well it will be the right decision. If not they screwed up.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
 |
| All times are GMT. The time now is . |
  |
|
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
CurlingZone > Chat Forums > General Curling Chat > Rock Talk > Mixed Doubles Olympic Trials
In the run up to Christmas Day, 1893, the Aberdeen Peoples's Journal offered a prize of one guinea for the best letter about curling! That's the invitation... (read more)
A quick break for the Memorial Day holiday and we're back with our guest and new USA Curling Womenâs National Team & Juniors Director Jessica Schultz.... (read more)
I am in week 3 of isolation/quarantine/home schooling and getting a little squirrel-y. Personal hygiene has become optional. The kids have watched the entire... (read more)
On today's World Curling Report...we recap Day 1 of the 2019 Canada Cup. (read more)