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| 11-23-15 05:04PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
Curling Zone's Facebook page stated Charlie Thomas was using an Icepad and refusing to abide by (12:56 Pm. November 22nd). I now see he is in the finals of the DeKalb Superspiel. Doesn't the new rules affect these cashspiels?
Unless the spiel is under the authority of the WCF/CC or their member associations, then no. It would be left up to the bonspiel organizers to decide what rules are enforced or modified (such as the five-guard zone rule in some events now and so on).
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| 11-23-15 05:33PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
So you can gain as many OOM points as you want, just don't use the brush in a WCF/CC event?
I am not knocking Hardline here, I think the brushing technique has more to do with it than the brush does.
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| 11-23-15 06:35PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
As far as I know, the ruling regarding brush equipment only applies to events sanctioned by the WCF or CC (and their member associations), that is, only provincial/national/regional and world championships. It has not been extended beyond that, and honestly, I don't think that they could at this point.
So it's up to the spiels themselves to decide. Or the teams that are participating can come up with a informal agreement (like the "elite" teams did). Same goes for your Tuesday Night Open League.
If the various tours wanted to put those rules in place, there is nothing stopping them. It would then be up to the individual spiels if they wanted to continue on as a sanctioned tour event though... they could always say no.
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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
Last edited by JustAnotherHack on 11-23-15 at 06:38PM
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| 11-23-15 07:18PM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
Reid wins the DeKalb. Brad wins in Halifax. Two more wins for HL. No directional fabric. No PVC waterproofing. No plastic inserts.
Just wondering what Glenn, Nolan and friends will now complain about to explain why they are not winning. The plastic cap at the top end of the broom?
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| 11-23-15 08:14PM |
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MakeTheFinal
Knee-Slider
Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 3 |
quote:
Originally posted by RockDoc
You are exactly right that the stiffeners keep the brushing fact on top of the pebble. This significantly increases sweeping pressure by decreasing the contact area of the brush with the ice for the same applied force (body weight). This happens with ALL brushes using stiffener plates, not just IcePad. Stiffeners increase the magnitude of the effects of any brushing material. The combination of a stiffener and a textured brushing surface has a maximum effect on the control of curl through microscratching the ice. The fundamental question is how much control of curl is too much? That is a more subjective call by stewards of the game. If you can influence curl by +/- 2 feet by high-side/low-side sweeping, is that acceptable? How much or how little is acceptable? This is an important decision for maintaining the integrity of the game.
Thank you the response. But I believe that the IcePad's plastic insert only focuses the pressure to the top of the pebble where the rock travels on, and allows you to have faster brush strokes. I don't see it being able to add pressure.
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| 11-23-15 09:47PM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame
Reid wins the DeKalb. Brad wins in Halifax. Two more wins for HL. No directional fabric. No PVC waterproofing. No plastic inserts.
Just wondering what Glenn, Nolan and friends will now complain about to explain why they are not winning. The plastic cap at the top end of the broom?
First of all, if you listened to the podcast with Glenn, you would have heard him admit readily that McEwen, Gushue and Carruthers could win with corn brooms. This has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
And second, I don't understand your point. If these guys are just as good without directional fabric or plastic inserts or whatever, then why are these new rules a problem?
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| 11-23-15 10:20PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote:
Originally posted by fresca
about the only solution in my opinion - brooms need to be standardized like rocks. - must be made almost identical , same foam, inserts and material
like footballs, baseballs, racing sailboats , - make winning be based on the players abilities ..
Rocks are far from standard. While on one sheet they are matched, sheet to sheet, and especially club to club they are very different.
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| 11-24-15 01:06AM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by MakeTheFinal
Thank you the response. But I believe that the IcePad's plastic insert only focuses the pressure to the top of the pebble where the rock travels on, and allows you to have faster brush strokes. I don't see it being able to add pressure.
Pressure = force/area
If you reduce contact area -- which a stiffener will do by limiting contact to top of pebble, not in between -- then pressure is increased. Force is constant (body weight). More pressure, more scratching of ice, more effect on curl.
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| 11-24-15 01:44PM |
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alex
Swing Artist
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Quesnel
Posts: 420 |
there must be a limit as a real scratch will impede a rock. Is there a tipping point?
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| 11-24-15 06:02PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
http://hardlinecurlingnews.blogspot...nov-18.html?m=1
Interesting press release. WCF, CCA and BP might wanna hunker down. There's a storm a coming...
Latest statement from Hardline from yesterday:
http://hardlinecurlingnews.blogspot...vember.html?m=1
Good for them. The way the WCF has handled this is just as messy and arbitrary as the "elite" did. They deserve to be put on the spot, as well as any member associations (Curling Canada, I'm looking at you) that support the WCF's position.
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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
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| 11-24-15 06:24PM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
One thing I find curious about Hardline's position is that they are happy to say they have the best broom on the market and then say, "it is talent, good shot-making, and effective sweeping techniques that help them win games and events". They're trying to have it both ways. It's the best broom on the market, but it doesn't make much difference.
I do kind of like their idea about removing all inserts. Would've been a logical temporary measure.
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| 11-24-15 06:36PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote:
Originally posted by peteski
One thing I find curious about Hardline's position is that they are happy to say they have the best broom on the market and then say, "it is talent, good shot-making, and effective sweeping techniques that help them win games and events". They're trying to have it both ways. It's the best broom on the market, but it doesn't make much difference.
I do kind of like their idea about removing all inserts. Would've been a logical temporary measure.
That's market talk. Balance Plus did the same when they brought out the EQ broom heads as well... they claimed it was the best, and they dominated the market and were the broom of choice for a time at the top, until Goldline came up with the Norway Pad. Every manufacturer claims their broom is the best... otherwise, why would you buy it? The reality is that without the talent, you're not going to win.
(The funny thing is that when the different brooms were tested by the two teams in Truro... it sure looks like it's not just the brooms, but the sweeping techniques as well.)
I get the feeling they just want a level playing field that treats all manufacturers fairly. If they can get that and some clear rules, they would be satisfied.
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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
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| 11-24-15 06:56PM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
I get the feeling they just want a level playing field that treats all manufacturers fairly. If they can get that and some clear rules, they would be satisfied.
Yes, that would be a good step.
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| 11-24-15 07:15PM |
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milobloom
Administrator
Registered: Mar 2005
Location: St. Albert
Posts: 839 |
quote:
Originally posted by alex
there must be a limit as a real scratch will impede a rock. Is there a tipping point?
Listen to the ATH Podcast.
http://curling.libsyn.com/
We discuss what makes a rock curl. Recent studies attribute the "micro" scratches that are created by the front edge of the running surface going over the pebble. A brush can create more micro scratches that will increase the effect.
Interesting that a 400 year old sport knows so little about its own physics. It's like early 1900s when everyone argued whether a curve-ball actually curved.
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| 11-25-15 01:30PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
If you listened to the interview Glenn did with Dean Gemmell, he said they found a material like the one being used by a certain other company but about 10 times more abrasive and they used it for the tests, and in the blackheads. Should have tested the same product, apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
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| 11-25-15 03:26PM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
Yes, very interesting. We still have the wet or dry friction argument and now this broom confusion.
But, this is an old game.... Those Scots figured out how to row over to Ailsa Crag after discovering the value of microcystaline granite. They also used to just sweep after the far hogline (or centerline?) with very scratchy round untrimmed "Harry Potter" brooms while chucking 80+ pound stones. Old engravings show 2 frantic round besom sweepers near the houses. Did any of them take hand lenses to the ice and the bottoms of rocks in the Renaissance or Enlightenment to study micro-scratches? One of them did afterall carve the first cupped runnng surface on the bottom of a curling rock. Those canny olde Scots...
quote:
Originally posted by milobloom
Interesting that a 400 year old sport knows so little about its own physics. It's like early 1900s when everyone argued whether a curve-ball actually curved.
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| 11-25-15 03:35PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Old news. Study was releases two years ago.
Old news, but still a seminal study on the physics of curling. The whole brush controversy has basically added additional weight to the hypotheses presented in that study [H. Nyberg, S. Alfredson, S. Hogmark, & S. Jacobson (2013) 301, 583-589. The asymmetrical friction mechanism that puts the curl in the curling stone.]
Unfortunately, I can't post the paper without violating copyright.
Cheers.
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| 11-25-15 08:18PM |
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milobloom
Administrator
Registered: Mar 2005
Location: St. Albert
Posts: 839 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Old news. Study was releases two years ago.
Not everyone may be as up to date on their Swedish University research as you Jamcan. 
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| 11-25-15 08:39PM |
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Be The Stone
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2015
Location:
Posts: 12 |
This video link was discussed last year in a CZ forum...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CUojMQgDpM
I find it interesting that the author of this video is "fascinated" that the professors of the theory do not communicate verbally but only by technical papers. But yet he talks to them freely and they welcome it.
6:12 in the video. Look at the scratch diagram on the left hand side of the video. Perhaps this explains making rocks fall to the various degrees alleged but not proved by video evidence. The angle of these sandpaper scratches does roughly correlate to a 45 degree angle sweeper motion on a hit weight shot.
The original BP press release on 10/16 implied that "directional" fabric can also make rocks slow down. Quote from the release... "Draw shots that are heavy are being swept to slow them down". I have seen no discussion of this regarding the IcePad, nor I have seen any video evidence of this on the Slam TV coverage by the IcePad teams or otherwise.
Like to hear the science folks weigh in on the scratch theory regarding the BP claim. It is logical that if rocks follow the guide scratches that if a both sweepers sweep hard at a 90 degree angle then the rock will follow in a zig zag pattern and slow down...
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| 12-02-15 01:59AM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
Speaking of science.....
The WCF high tech broom ban November 18 press release said the whole point is "... to ensure a fair and level playing field and to respect the principle that any technological advancements or innovations have a positive impact on the sport and its traditions, and that athletic performance and mental skill are the dominant elements for success."
So "athletic performance" and "mental skill" are supposed to be dominant. Maybe that's how WCF thinks it can achieve its Official Mission Statememt "To be the world's favorite Olympic/Paralympic Winter Team Sport" right there on the WCF's Rules page 1 under "The Spirit of Curling." Higher, stronger, fastest and such now.
I wonder what the secretaries of Lochmaben Curling Society's minute book of 1823-1863 would think of all of this? One wrote down for the Society's rule #14 "... the contest must be decided upom principles of fair science - not brute-strength." [Thanks Curling History Blog for the link to that minute book!]
Our "traditions" now are more about the Olympics and brute-strength than the historic curling tradition of fair science.
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| 12-02-15 09:58AM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by Be The Stone
The original BP press release on 10/16 implied that "directional" fabric can also make rocks slow down. Quote from the release... "Draw shots that are heavy are being swept to slow them down". I have seen no discussion of this regarding the IcePad, nor I have seen any video evidence of this on the Slam TV coverage by the IcePad teams or otherwise.
Like to hear the science folks weigh in on the scratch theory regarding the BP claim. It is logical that if rocks follow the guide scratches that if a both sweepers sweep hard at a 90 degree angle then the rock will follow in a zig zag pattern and slow down...
You suggest a likely mechanism for "rock-slowing" by depositing orthogonal scratches in the ice ahead of the stone, but there is to my personal knowledge no currently available supporting evidence for this as yet.
I can easily reproduce considerable effects on curl (+/- 2-3 feet) by high-side, low-side sweeping with artificially textured brushing materials with my curling school students, but I haven't yet figured out a good way of objectively and reproducibly testing the "rock-slowing" hypothesis. Maybe with my IR speed trap and a couple of disciplined sweepers I could see a differential effect comparing sweeping with tradiational and artificially textured materials. I think this may be difficult to quantify, though.
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