Registered: Oct 2014
Location:
Posts: 5

Been using a Balance Plus broom for years. Even had it signed by Team Howard at the Hamilton Brier. It currently has a Norway pad on it. The way this has all gone down, I'm on the verge of buying an IcePad out of sheer moral outrage. [/B][/QUOTE]

My situation and feelings are the same.

(Except my Howard team signed BP broom isn't the one with the Norway head which I use.)

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Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399

quote:

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Originally posted by draway8


The WCF rule now also applies to "hardening or stiffening inserts". So basically the Ice Pad. I'd love to review the careful analysis that went into this decision.

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Registered: Apr 2005
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Posts: 399

quote:

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Originally posted by OrangeKing
Are we certain that the EQ+ heads (which are very different from the blackhead) are part of the new moratorium? With the USCA adopting the WCF ruling, this matters to anyone going even to club playdowns - my lead bought a LiteSpeed before the season. I don't want to panic him before we have some official guidance on this, which once again points to the need for the WCF to come up with at least a partial in/out list.

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Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399

quote:

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Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
And you forgot to include the sweeping motion itself. Is it the way people sweep that cause the problem (i.e., the snow plow)?

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990

I have used a BP broom for years but will be purchasing a Hardline product to support the little guy that is being stomped on.

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Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106

quote:

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Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I have used a BP broom for years but will be purchasing a Hardline product to support the little guy that is being stomped on.

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990

Maybe its time for a kickstarter Hardline defense fund project

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Registered: Feb 2014
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Posts: 17

https://twitter.com/HardlineCurling...765877190828033 Pretty sure this means a lawsuit is coming.

Where in the rule book did it state that all these things are banned when the equipment doesn't break a rule? Also, it's so obvious that every new rule is targeted at hardline.

1. The fabric texturing I can see being a perceived issue (but not a proven one). Fair enough, it affects multiple manufacturers.

2. Hardening or stiffening inserts being a perceived issue? Seriously? since when did this become an issue? The fabrics were called out, and a response was given. The plastic insert came blindly out of left field, and I don't remember any media about this to back up the claim! If a hardening agent is banned, why not ban the heat reflector too? Where's the testing done on that?

3. Only equipment available at retailers as of Nov. 17, 2015 is allowed. This is such a blatant attempt at preventing any new innovation and stopping hardline. Every other company has other brooms, and hardline only has the one (very effective) option. How about creating an approved list of heads, as of Nov 17, 2015? Then to get on the approved list, it has to be tested! Way less confusing for everyone.

Throwing your hands up and saying "not my issue" is not the way to run any kind of business. It is an embarrassment to persecute without due trial. Also, there has been no published tests as of yet either to the general public, or even the manufacturers according to Hardline. Having a lack of hard evidence to back up a claim is very wrong in the eyes of stakeholders. I hope legal action takes place and the true story comes out from the source. Until then, I'll get out the popcorn

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990

Basically its" Here's your punishment for being guilty, according to your chief rival, we will check the evidence after you have served your sentence to see if it has any merit or not".

I would continue using the Hardline Brooms until they show empirical evidence that the claims BP make are true.

Last edited by dugless_zone 13 on 11-21-15 at 10:13AM

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Registered: Jul 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 23

quote:

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Originally posted by My three sons


dnero you making yourself look like a monkey. Do you think Brad Gushue dropped Goldline and his lucrative contract with them because HL was gonna pay more. Give your head a shake.
He went with HL cause he knew he would have an ADVANTAGE over the other teams and could compete with McEwen and Carruthers. These two teams have had their way for a while without anyone knowing. If it wasn't for these two teams and their success using their brooms like a joystick HL would not be enjoying the success they are currently having. Their gig is up. Now lets see who the best teams are?
Lets get back to what the spirit of the game is?
I love what HL has done with respect to innovation, but this is over the line.
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Registered: Jul 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 23

quote:

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Originally posted by dwenzek
https://twitter.com/HardlineCurling...765877190828033 Pretty sure this means a lawsuit is coming.

Where in the rule book did it state that all these things are banned when the equipment doesn't break a rule? Also, it's so obvious that every new rule is targeted at hardline.

1. The fabric texturing I can see being a perceived issue (but not a proven one). Fair enough, it affects multiple manufacturers.

2. Hardening or stiffening inserts being a perceived issue? Seriously? since when did this become an issue? The fabrics were called out, and a response was given. The plastic insert came blindly out of left field, and I don't remember any media about this to back up the claim! If a hardening agent is banned, why not ban the heat reflector too? Where's the testing done on that?

3. Only equipment available at retailers as of Nov. 17, 2015 is allowed. This is such a blatant attempt at preventing any new innovation and stopping hardline. Every other company has other brooms, and hardline only has the one (very effective) option. How about creating an approved list of heads, as of Nov 17, 2015? Then to get on the approved list, it has to be tested! Way less confusing for everyone.

Throwing your hands up and saying "not my issue" is not the way to run any kind of business. It is an embarrassment to persecute without due trial. Also, there has been no published tests as of yet either to the general public, or even the manufacturers according to Hardline. Having a lack of hard evidence to back up a claim is very wrong in the eyes of stakeholders. I hope legal action takes place and the true story comes out from the source. Until then, I'll get out the popcorn

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

quote:

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Originally posted by dnero


The best thing that the grassroots curlers can do right now is to support HL

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: St. Albert
Posts: 839

I'd really like someone to explain the insert situation, as this appeared to come out of left field.

I remember the foil inserts, they were used in Vancouver, correct? By Bernard but not Martin I believe. Someone please correct me if I'm mis-remembering. I'm fairly certain Curling Canada was involved in testing.

The CCA (as it was called at the time) was supporting anything that would create an advantage and Vancouver was definitely a win at all costs situation. This behaviour was (and is) driven by the "own the podium" initiatives that are all about winning gold.

I understood the foil helps to heat the ice. So that's fine but a plastic insert is not?

If I didn't have a day job and a family I'd be tempted to go Woodward and Bernstein on this situation. There seems to be a deeper story here that is not being told.

If only we knew who "Deep Throat" is, we could get the top secret information we need.

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Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57

Ridiculous notion. Then foil plate comes out of BP& others' brooms and Norway pads lose their ridges....THEN all would be equal. WCF & other actions smack of knee jerk reaction to a major sponsor (BF) whining & bullying. ZERO science data has been created and declarations based on hearsay and BP teams bitching. So now for Prov play downs everyone should turn up w a Brownie? Lawyer Amy Nixon of team Carey has already echoed no one asked them for point of view as a top women's team? What if every team used one sweeper technique before crying a river? Harris & Martin insist results would be similar to Gushue. What a joke if that proved true and the HL witch hunt became even clearer. Anger should be directed at gutless, manipulated WCF & other governing bodies.

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shaqdaddy

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Registered: Jul 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 23

quote:

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Originally posted by curlky


Isn't a grassroots campaign about integrity, with no corporate ties. It about the people and the thing itself. Seems like siding with a corporate entity is anti-grassroots

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990

what is Curling Canadas statement concerning the brooms. I looked on the website but could not find any press release.

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Registered: Apr 2007
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 28

I can't imagine why I would ever buy a Balance Plus product again (maybe I will be proved wrong, but I doubt it).

I wonder how long it will be before these Balance Plus curlers (Howard, Theissen, etc...) realize they are being used like pawns. One day they are going to feel embarrassed about their role in this fiasco.

I realize they likely feel they are doing this so a fair standard is reached, but the way they are going about it is embarrassing (and wrong) and I don't understand how they can't see that right now.

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Registered: May 2013
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Posts: 32

Yankee, your calling out these guys cause they are fighting for the integrity and spirit of our sport. Maybe you need to spend and end or two with them and see for yourself what they are fighting for.
I have more respect for these guys now, cause they are fighting for what is right and good in this game.
You obviously want to take this game into the dark side where its ok to stab a guy in the back.
Eddy Werenich was a curler who once said, "me against you, no tricks or no games, we'll see who the best curler is". Sounds to me that you want the tables slanted in your direction.
I hope for Curling's sake we get this figured out.

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 25

quote:

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Originally posted by curlky


Isn't a grassroots campaign about integrity, with no corporate ties. It about the people and the thing itself. Seems like siding with a corporate entity is anti-grassroots

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Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57

M3sons everyone wants what's right for the game. This is not the way to do it, no fact based data, bullying teams/players/mfgs, unreasonable mid season actions et al. This WCF AND governing bodies' behaviour shows NO integrity at all. Dark side? Stab in the back? Get real, hardly. Nice integrity by BP at StuSells with their Frankenbroom stunt then bogus video of Howard corner sweeping & snowplowing. Nobody has done anything wrong.....what's wrong are the reactions.

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shaqdaddy

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268

quote:

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Originally posted by My three sons
Yankee, your calling out these guys cause they are fighting for the integrity and spirit of our sport. Maybe you need to spend and end or two with them and see for yourself what they are fighting for.
I have more respect for these guys now, cause they are fighting for what is right and good in this game.
You obviously want to take this game into the dark side where its ok to stab a guy in the back.
Eddy Werenich was a curler who once said, "me against you, no tricks or no games, we'll see who the best curler is". Sounds to me that you want the tables slanted in your direction.
I hope for Curling's sake we get this figured out.

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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268

quote:

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Originally posted by RockDoc


I think this is digging where there's taters. Corner sweeping is not the issue and probably never was. The scientific literature has known for around 80 years that differential friction on the left and right of the stone cannot cause a stone to accelerate in the horizontal direction. To get a stone to move left or right you need a differential friction on the front and rear of the stone. (cf. Nyberg scratch theory from their 2013 paper in Wear.)

The issue is most likely the ANGLE of the brushing motion. To oversimplify, stones will attempt to follow guide scratches in the ice. (That's why rocks curl in the first place according to Nyberg et al.) Angled sweeping motions will produce guide scratches that gently coax stones in the direction of the scratches. The more scratches you can make, the more pronounced this effect will be. (Textured brush fabrics should be fabulous at this.) All brushing materials can do this to some degree, and Team Gushue let the genie out of the bottle this season with the single-sweeper deployment. I think they got it right. (At least as far as controlling curl.) This is why switch-sweeping has been observed to work, IMO.

Distance is another issue, and is a little more murky in terms of theory. There, two sweepers are probably better than one.

Cheers.

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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 25

Here's another thing that hasn't been discussed, in the negative curl video posted by BP the rock that Scott Howard sweeps the length of the sheet to make fall the rock stop shorter.

Now is that because of the sweeping technique or the broom? Because if it's the broom then I have a fairly different interpretation of events, the Blackhead brush is not a useful curling brush.

The most important aspect of a brush is to take draws further, and the Blackhead might not be able to do that, perhaps for the same reason it's able to make rocks fall.

If that's the case here's my alternate suggestion for a rule fix:

1) You can't switch brush fabrics during a game (ie no blackhead for hits and other for draws).

2) A broom can't switch sides during a throw (so you can't have one blackhead and one regular so one controls line and one controls weight).

Do that and the whole blackhead issue might go away because it's not a useful brush in a game situation.

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Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57

FYI Blackhead brush has never been for sale and was never intended for sale. Prototype given to BP teams to 'prove a point'.....nice behaviour!

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shaqdaddy

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Registered: Nov 2015
Location: Alberta
Posts: 15

I am on the fence about Hi-tech brooms. I think it boils down to what the top teams want. If they are for or against it its good enough for me.

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