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04-16-20 02:23PM
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OK, I'm getting more confused now, because Wikipedia says Christmas Tree is an arrangement inside the house, but some of you say it's in front of the house. nelski's H's is also upside down compared to decade's, so are we drawing it from the skip's perspective or the thrower's out of the hack?

In any case, I looked around on the internet and found this instructional material.

http://www.uticacurlingclub.org/tik...php?fileId=1458

So their diagram and explanation helped a lot, and now I can remember lots of Christmas Tree-like structures, if we allow the rocks to be spaced out instead of in a tight formation. I have heard lots of discussion about why you'd only want to be slightly buried, not fully. In fact, that's what Earle Morris says in the Homan vs Jones video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtxYtaf0JBg ): bury just a bit, let Jones try to hit it, she might roll out (or jam).

Had Homan buried it full, Jones would be forced to play the riskier slash double. This would've been very rewarding for Jones, which is why Team Homan got scared and called the time out to begin with.

Last edited by curlingclips on 04-16-20 at 02:33PM

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04-16-20 02:40PM
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Welp, had I actually followed the references on Wikipedia, I would've answered my own question straight from Colleen Jones:

https://twitter.com/cbccolleenjones...863275183276035

quote:

Q: Settle an important argument for me: What, exactly, qualifies as a 'Christmas Tree' setup in #curling?

A: centre guard, draw round it to top 4,show 1/2 of that rock, then draw round guard top 12, show 1/4 - they line up like edge of [Christmas Tree]



So it is in the house (not guards), and quite deliberate (not by accident).

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04-16-20 03:03PM
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Theoretically, the Xmas Tree arrangement can be:

1. All in the House
2. All in front of the House
3. Part in front, part in house

#2 is a bit rarer because there's no apparent shot rock in play; Xmas trees usually arise to protect a shot stone in the house, but its theoretically possible to build one without.

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04-16-20 04:44PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nelski
What the Xmas tree does, is to prevent the opportune roll, while at the same time making a hit quite difficult. It also makes double/triple angles disadvantageous. The rocks are visible, so "teasers" but don't leave opportunity for great outcome. It is a good situation for the team whose rocks created the formation.
***H
**H
*H
Freezes also leave little room for error. It takes oppositions misses (or half shots) to get this formation.



My lesson on formatting from 2 people today. Got it. Thanks

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04-16-20 06:44PM
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quote:
Originally posted by decade
unfortunately CZ destroyed the layout of my H's
Whew. |I couldn't figure what you were trying.

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04-17-20 04:58AM
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Decade

Good attempt.

you just "papered the guard" in your formatting. lol

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04-18-20 01:34PM
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When someone hogs a rock in my league I always hear "that's around". Around what?

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04-18-20 01:44PM
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A round of drinks for the team for hogging it

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04-18-20 03:22PM
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The glossary mentions the "anti-freeze", which I guess is when you freeze on the backside of a resting stone. I can't remember ever seeing anything like this. Can anyone point me to a memorable example?

The only one I can think of is what Russ call "the backward freeze", Pätz's first in 9th end of women's world final vs Hasselborg, but this was done as an around the horn hit and roll instead of a straight draw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYOOyR5VXFo&t=2h9m35s

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04-18-20 04:29PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hogged again
When someone hogs a rock in my league I always hear "that's around". Around what?

And a true curling "term expert" must know why it is called the hog line. Do a little research . Definitely related to buying a round!!

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04-18-20 05:56PM
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On that note, it'd be great to have a quick summary of the history of curling, with years elements of the rules were introduced.

From what I understand, there was no hog line in the past, in that throwers can just keep going while holding on to the rock.

I enjoy mixed doubles too, and watching "old" footage can get very confusing because the rules changed rapidly over the short few years of its existence, with the introducing of power play, moving the pre-positioned stone from back button to back 4, etc.

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04-18-20 08:08PM
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quote:
Originally posted by decade

And a true curling "term expert" must know why it is called the hog line. Do a little research . Definitely related to buying a round!!



Well duh.

Last edited by hogged again on 04-18-20 at 08:22PM

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04-18-20 08:58PM
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There are many "history books" out there. One on the early history books from Scotland 1890 was written by John Kerr. Two theories on hog line- people sat on hogshead barrels to watch the game and new lambs were called "hogs". Weak just like curlers who could not through very hard. Keep in mind early stones were often triangular/square. A lot of clubs in Scotland have some of these on display. They were/are often found at the bottom of ponds in Scotland.
Infrequently Kerr's book can be found on ebay around $400 depending on condition.

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04-18-20 09:17PM
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I'm reading Brian Chick's book right now (Written in Stone: A Modern History of Curling, less than $10 e-book on Amazon), which is Canadian perspective and starting in the 80's.

I wasn't really asking for a history book recommendation, though. I was hoping someone that someone can write a historical cheat sheet article on Wikipedia for the evolution of the rules, a quick reference for people watching archival footage.

I know when I'm watching 2018 Olympics that it's the 4 rock era, for example, but that was knowledge from having lived through the transition as a viewer. I don't know what to expect when I'm watching, say the Hackner (NO) vs Ryan (AB) 1985 Brier final, for example.

It'd be nice if there's a cheat sheet for quick reference for which rule was introduced in which year.

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04-18-20 09:37PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

From what I understand, there was no hog line in the past, in that throwers can just keep going while holding on to the rock.




Sliders were not that good back in those days. I think there was actually a time when sliders became decent that the rule was you had to let the rock go, stop sliding completely and get up without crossing the hogline. Maybe some of the seniors on this site can confirm or refute.

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04-19-20 09:22AM
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In the early days of Brier curling, film clips still exist. Most Brier level curlers (amateurs who beat other amateurs in their home provinces) were barely able to slide from hack to T-line; essentially they had nothing to slide upon - throwing from the hack would be looked at as a great hinderance in today's game. You have to get the feel for the ice and line all in one pull-back and release, taking less than 2 seconds.

Not until the Sliding Watsons of Manitoba came up with a special sliding surface on their Oxford shoes did THE SLIDE come into play. But many curlers were athletically unable to master a slide, regardless of what the Watson's displayed during their games.

Look at soudog films of old Brier games from 1940 to approx. 1954 and many curlers were still tossin' it from the hack. By 1960/63 most curlers had mastered some sort of slide - some able to only advance to the first T-line, others having to watch themselves so they didn't cross the hog-line with rock in hand.

When curling returns - I wouldn't mind seeing a full tournament with seniors, mixed, juniors & regular teams all playing - with one codicil. They have to throw from the hack - THE GREAT EQUALIZER.

fwiw - I think monsters like Koe, Jacobs, Koe, etc. would find a way to adjust and win such events. Players like Gunner, Laycock, McEwen, JJ Jones, Homan would flop under such circumstances.

Not only does one have to throw from the hack - you'd have to re-invent the backswing - something almost unheard about in today's era.

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04-22-20 03:16PM
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This may sound silly, but just in case it isn't: what does the "Sit!" line call mean? I mean, I sort of understand "Curl!", "Straight!", "Every inch!", etc., but I'm not sure what they mean when they say "Sit!" (or who they were even talking to for that matter).

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04-22-20 08:02PM
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Either don't roll or stop rolling. Usually before rolling out of rings or out of counting rock position.

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04-22-20 08:23PM
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So they're just yelling at the rock like it's a trained dog? I mean, I'm fine with that if that's really the case, I find it quite amusing, but I just want to make sure that this is actually what they're doing (for some reason).

I watched some wheelchair curling out of curiosity, and they were yelling line calls too even though there were no sweepers.

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04-22-20 09:39PM
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we definitely do yell at the granite. It helps. "Sit" is a common command. Also, "Don't touch it!", or "Kiss" are supernatural commands that utter forth loudly from me while I exercise extreme eye contact with the stone(s) in question. Head gestures are also common for this purpose.

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04-22-20 09:56PM
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Speaking of granite, what are all the "personality types" that a set of rocks can have at a team's disposal?

For example, I've definitely heard of "cutters", which I believe are rocks that tend to have a big finish at the end. Some rocks may travel in a straighter line and/or shorter distance. I guess some rocks are more "resistant" to hits and don't transfer momentum as efficiently (Russ always talk about how the newer generation of rocks make freezing harder and blasting easier).

People sometimes joke that some rocks are bigger and could be used for guards, and some rocks are smaller and can be used to go through holes.

Am I missing other "personality types"? Do those have nicknames as well? (like a "turtle" for a slow rock or something?).

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05-09-20 11:56PM
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What's a "loading" shot?

I only have one example to provide context, from US Nationals this year, Sinclair vs Peterson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxX7M4KVMAo

From what I understand, Sinclair is asking Christensen to "load it", which looks like a freeze at a specific angle. It looks like they're trying to aim it so that when it's time to "fire", the backing will act like a "bullet" that can take out another stone.

I see this tactic often, freeze and/or tap and setting up angles for hits later, but this is the first time I heard it described as "loading" and "firing". I'm no curling expert, but it sounds way too revealing in my opinion when used real time in a game with your opposition at earshot (unless your goal is to divulge the plan to your opposition, to plant ideas in their heads -- Gushue talked about doing this in his Facebook Q&A, but that's another subject altogether).

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05-21-20 02:14AM
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What's a "kicker"?

Here's where Kevin Martin used it (context starts at 1h21m5s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtqEux8EF5I&t=1h21m5s

"I really liked John's first call! Open everything up and maybe get a second kicker in the rings!"

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06-26-20 09:40PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
Speaking of granite, what are all the "personality types" that a set of rocks can have at a team's disposal?

This doesn't really answer the question, but historically, curling stones were so distinguishable from each other in size and shape that clubs would have names for them, as well as basic measurements.

http://curlinghistory.blogspot.com/...e-had-name.html

One club's "Robbie Dow" was a tiny 34 lbs, but they also had a massive "The Egg" that was 115 lbs. Must've been interesting times to curl.

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06-27-20 08:48PM
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With regard to the glossary term "SIT" there's definitely a dichotomy -

A team like The Mean Girls (Homan) rarely, if ever speak to their rocks after caroming off other rocks in the house. They definitely speak to rocks as they make their way down-ice because that's essential communication with the skip or vice.

A team like Jennifer Jones, on the other hand will be screaming top of lung for rocks to "SIT DOWN" or "SIT" in the house to provide a kicker or extra counting stone.

Two great teams, 2 diametrically opposed treatments.

Of course, Homan (and Emma) were trained to be cold as ice, cool & calculated and they've retained the training for over 20 years together. Jones has never curled with anyone more than 12 years (Dawn), although Jill might have been up to 14 yrs prior to "retiring". In any event Jones, by nature is a far more jumpy & emotional leader than Homan - and jumpy and emotional will always scream at rocks, even if its somewhat supernatural.

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Curling Scores

D: Korean Curling Championships
Gangneung, KOR
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Nov 27 -- 12:00am ET
Jang/Seong Final
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Park/Park Final
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