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02-12-16 09:54AM |
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Posada
Swing Artist
Registered: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 485 |
Team Gushue brushing test - video
Following the #broomhaha which spawned The Curling News' February issue expose of brushing techniques "I Can Sweep Like A Pro... And I Am Ruining Curling" ...
... and the video from Norway's Team Hoiberg...
Team Gushue has released their own brushing test video:
http://bit.ly/1PHqWvU
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02-12-16 10:05AM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
Proof it's not the material, it's the technique. I'm sure they'd get similar results no matter what manufacturer they use.
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02-12-16 10:08AM |
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Gritsy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 32 |
I wish they had used the "approved" Hardline, or used the hair without the directional sweeping. Because this doesn't prove whether it's more the broom or more the technique.
What it does prove is that what I assume is a brand new hair broom (proven to most effective when new) can do the same things that the Hardline version that got banned can do.
It doesn't appear to me Gushue is trying to outlaw the technique (otherwise he would have done a test with brushing across face of rock), he's trying to prove hair needs to be banned.
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02-12-16 10:10AM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
So the Hardline's biggest advantage is it keeps the distance of the stone relatively similar to the control stone. The hairbrush shortens the shot against the curl and lengthened the shot with the curl.
Obvious the sweeping methods need to be changed, not the equipment.
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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02-12-16 10:20AM |
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Rowner
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jul 2011
Location:
Posts: 15 |
Now this is consistent with what our team has tested as far as how much you can make a rock change paths. The Hoiberg video certainly has some flaws or they are using a very different hair broom than I can get my hands on. Thank you to team Gushue for comparing the hair to the original ice pad. I'm on the fence about directional sweeping, but I agree that Hardline has been dealt a very unfair blow over the past year and if this test has any merit than the hair should also go. However if you were to do this test with the Norway and or the new balance plus synthetics I feel it would be very similar and thus not the fabric but the technique.
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02-12-16 10:28AM |
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swjones
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2011
Location:
Posts: 15 |
100% agree that it's a start to proving that this was never an issue of the Icepad and insert being the problem but yet Hardline was strung-up in a witch hunt that was seemingly baseless. The next version of this test would be to simply do the same sequence of controlled shots that Gushue did and use the traditional East to West sweeping. It's ok to just use 1 sweeper on the side you are trying to influence (kinda like the old "Morris Switch" approach but don't snowplow and corner sweep it. Let's see where the rocks go. And heck let's do that test with a Balance Plus Eq+ and a GoldLine Norway pad just for the heck of it as compared to a hair broom. I actually don't know what the result will be but I'd like to see it.
It would seem banning brooms was an easy path for the WCF and CCA to take because it does not impact judgment based rules enforcement on the ice but the realty is that path was the wrong one because it did not address what the actual problem was. Bla Bla we can't enforce sweeping rules because it's a judgement call. We put someone in a chair on the hogline for decades to enforce a judgement call and everyone lived with that realty in the game. A simple system of perhaps 1 or 2 warnings of sweeping infractions and then start the process of removing stones for the balance of the game.
Good work by the Gushue crew showing the strongest testing video yet with speed traps and the visualization of where rocks travelled to in a series of shots. This same testing can be done extensively with multiple brooms, fabrics, shot selections (with the speed traps), lasers to ensure consistency of line of release etc etc. We need to put this sweeping and broom issue to bed with extensive, independent and unbiased testing supported by transparent results publication & video evidence soon. Is the 2016 Brier going to have an Asterix beside it because it was the #BroomGate Brier?
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02-12-16 01:15PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
It was a great video. What would have made it complete would have been for them to also sweep with an EQ and a Norway too ( I know they are not contracted to Goldline or Balance Plus but if they are able to achieve similar results with all brooms then the ban would be shown to be nothing more than punitive measures by the governing bodies to placate sponsors.
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02-12-16 02:12PM |
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IceMelter
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2009
Location:
Posts: 25 |
A video I would find more compelling is one that shows whether or not the sweeping changes the ice for the next shot. Does a certain brush head scratch the ice (impacting the next stone down that same path) more than any other brush head?
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02-12-16 02:30PM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
It took 5 minutes for Gushue and friends to do this very revealing video. I also wish they would have done the same test with EQ and Norway pads.
Four months later, no word from WCF or CCA regarding all the testing they were supposed to do. Buying time for their friendly sponsors?
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02-12-16 02:43PM |
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Posada
Swing Artist
Registered: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 485 |
quote: Originally posted by Itsjustagame
Four months later, no word from WCF or CCA regarding all the testing they were supposed to do. Buying time for their friendly sponsors?
If you chose to follow The Curling News info portals, you would know the WCF hosted an unprecedented brush manufacturer's meeting in Toronto last week.
We made not one but two joke videos about the meeting in advance:
VIDEO #1
VIDEO #2
The meeting's purpose was to update the industry - i.e. all manufacturers - on various items of interest including testing.
We'll have more on the meeting and recent events of note in the upcoming March (#Broomgate Brier) edition of The Curling News...
http://thecurlingnews.com
Last edited by Posada on 02-12-16 at 02:45PM
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02-12-16 03:05PM |
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Sean
Administrator
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1992 |
Given this I'm surprised teams are still using one synthetic and not two hairs while they still can.
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02-12-16 03:09PM |
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Rowner
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jul 2011
Location:
Posts: 15 |
I think that anybody with any knowledge of the curling world would agree that at this point in the season wholesale changes cannot be made. We have to ride it out and see what comes at us in the summer. I also feel that WCF and the CCA are treading very lightly on revealing the results of any tests that they've completed - due to the fact that if in fact Hardline is exonerated as being the only "illegal" brush head on the open market than you can bet that legal action will be taken towards the parties that diminished their sales for the past year. It would have been different if it were only the teams on tour who banned the hardline, but the WCF and CCA went in on it as well for their sanctioned events and thus has created what we call a "cluster f###" of possible solutions and outcomes. This is going to get real ugly for parties involved.
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02-12-16 05:09PM |
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alex
Swing Artist
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Quesnel
Posts: 420 |
the video is not a perfect test but certainly show a significant difference with the variation in technique. Makes you wonder what we have been doing all these years.
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02-13-16 11:05AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
What are the chances that CC or the WCF admit they made a mistake and fix the rules to combat the sweeping technique as opposed to their kneejerk, sponsor driven ban on a perfectly good broom. They can't ban Hair considering that was their stated solution to the problem. My guess is they do nothing now because they have no real clue what they are doing and are more politics driven as opposed to for the good of the game.
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02-13-16 11:24AM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
What are the chances that CC or the WCF admit they made a mistake
I dont think anyone made a mistake. There was a very tense environment in curling, and something needed to be done to calm the situation. They always have said, this is the ruling, and we will do more testing from here. This is a prudent process if you ask me. Any business or family, if there is a problem, the solution is always, what can we do right now, and then what will we do next. There are times when the first action is not always the best, and you correct as you go.
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02-13-16 12:37PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
actually, you say "this appears to be the problem and we will be looking into it", then you devise fair and unbiased testing using baseline controls as a starting point. After testing all possibilities you share your findings, findings that are easily reproduced in all similar settings by other independent testers and then you act on it in a way that satisfies the problem.
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02-13-16 01:44PM |
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milobloom
Administrator
Registered: Mar 2005
Location: St. Albert
Posts: 839 |
quote: Originally posted by curlky
I dont think anyone made a mistake. There was a very tense environment in curling, and something needed to be done to calm the situation. They always have said, this is the ruling, and we will do more testing from here. This is a prudent process if you ask me. Any business or family, if there is a problem, the solution is always, what can we do right now, and then what will we do next. There are times when the first action is not always the best, and you correct as you go.
Agreed, no one intended to make a mistake, but unfortunately, the result could be a mistake. This all has had a financial impact to a company and possibly leaves itself open to legal proceedings. Curling Canada is a government agency with limited budgets. What happens if it gets sued?
What continues to boggle me is, hair has been around 100 years (in Europe) and nearly 40 years in Canada, how come no one ever figured this out before?
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02-13-16 02:40PM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
I don't know how anyone can look at this problem and say that the equipment is not the issue? Would directional brushing be as effective with any old broom?
Yes, the newly discovered brushing techniques showed us that brushing can do a whole lot more than we thought, but if the brushes weren't as effective as they are, it wouldn't matter. The problem we currently have is that the margin for error players have for shooting is larger than ever. Even if you fixed the techniques, what happens if new brushes can take a rock thrown just over the hogline and put it on the button? How can anyone at this point say that could never happen? Are you so sure that a perfectly by the book brushing stroke still wouldn't be able to have directional abilities? Even if it doesn't now, how can you be so sure that they wouldn't come up with something that will in the future?
How can anyone be against having strict guidelines for brushes? Ban the hair, mandate the fabric, do whatever you have to do about inserts and be done with it. Problem solved. This is so much easier (and more effective) than enforcing rules on sweeping techniques, which will inevitably involve a judgement call, something I've always been grateful that curling doesn't have to deal with. All sports have rules about equipment, why shouldn't curling?
__________________
Not Pete Steski
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02-13-16 03:42PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
Couple of comments here:
First- Peteski you are dead wrong continuing to focus on the equipment as the issue. For whatever reason, guys like you continue to point fingers at the tools when more and more data clearly shows its the way people are sweeping, not the brush being used. Even if you eliminated all brushes completely and said its back to synthetic corn you would see similar results-it happened back in the 70's when there were Rink Rats and Mark 2 Cats in abundance. Ask any old competitive curler from those days and they'll tell you such.
Let's also remember that the entire purpose of sweeping is not to drag a rock further and/or straighter as some like to claim. It is to manipulate the course of the stone to aid in making the shot. The question remains how much manipulation is acceptable?
Although the Gushue video is not scientific in its procedures or data, it is a vast improvement on the original Howard video and what it does show very clearly is this:
The instrument is not at fault. It is most likely the technique and the rules allowing said technique to be at fault. So banning, as Peteski strangely supports, equipment which until now wasn't considered a problem is not going to change anything.
Second-Gushue's video does not go far enough. He shows three good things: Split times, a control stone and hair vs. synthetic. What he fails to show is what happens when you bring in two sweepers, one on each side and if the impact is the same as the single sweeper going against and with the curl.
If that testing showed, as I strongly suspect, the stone curling not as much as one sweeper with the curl and more than one sweeper against then it, IMO, proves the micro scratching theory that sweeping imparts on the ice.
In short, the lead sweeper is creating micro-scratches that is at cross purposes to what the sweeper closest to the stone is attempting to do. This means that the close sweeper is having to erase the micro scratching left by the lead sweeper.
Your obvious question is: What does this mean for the future?
Well, for the most part it means that CURRENT equipment is not the culprit. It is, again IMO, a combination of the one sweeper technique and the rules allowing snowplowing and corner sweeping.
You can eliminate snowplowing and cornering with a rule that clearly defines and explains an acceptable sweeping motion. We can, and absolutely should, begin proper testing and regulating of ALL equipment (And I mean shoes as well as brooms).
Do those two things and you will lessen the so-called 'Joysticking' and make the delivery and release the larger part of successful shotmaking that everyone wants it to be.
But understand this: one-sweeper techniques are not going away and will be almost impossible to stop. That genie is out of the bottle and here to stay. Yes, two brushers will always be needed to drag a draw furthest if need be. But when the weight is good and line is more critical then you will have only one person sweeping dependent upon the need; hold straight or more curl.
The only way you ever eliminate this is to eliminate sweeping altogether. Something which will never, or should, happen.
Lastly, lets get over our foolish fear of officials watching how curlers sweep. We want our game to be big time but we are not going to be able to maintain the fantasy that we can leave rules up to the players. Every sport employs officials and we can be no different. Even golf is not without officials who can-contrary to what some believe-step in at any time and call and penalize players for violating the rules (whether it be intentional or accidental).
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
Last edited by jamcan on 02-13-16 at 04:15PM
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02-13-16 04:20PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
GOD has spoken - listen and obey - arguing will not be tolerated.
hey jamee , what did you do for a living ?
Get bent fresca. It's none of your business. I'd welcome real argument from you if you had anything to contribute of value. But instead all I read is the same drivel that all brooms are evil and its not the technique-no matter how much proof continues to pop up (in dribs and drabs) that its the real issue.
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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02-13-16 04:25PM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
quote: Originally posted by jamcan
Couple of comments here:
First- Peteski you are dead wrong continuing to focus on the equipment as the issue. Although the Gushue video is not scientific in its procedures or data, it is a vast improvement on the original Howard video and what it does show very clearly is this:
The instrument is not at fault. It is most likely the technique and the rules allowing said technique to be at fault.
Second-Gushue's video does not go far enough. He shows three good things: Split times, a control stone and hair vs. synthetic. What he fails to show is what happens when you bring in two sweepers, one on each side and if the impact is the same as the single sweeper going against and with the curl.
If that testing showed, as I strongly suspect, the stone curling not as much as one sweeper with the curl and more than one sweeper against then it, IMO, proves the micro scratching theory that sweeping imparts on the ice.
In short, the lead sweeper is creating micro-scratches that is at cross purposes to what the sweeper closest to the stone is attempting to do. This means that the close sweeper is having to erase the micro scratching left by the lead sweeper.
Your obvious question is: What does this mean for the future?
Well, for the most part it means that CURRENT equipment is not the culprit. It is, again IMO, a combination of the one sweeper technique and the rules allowing snowplowing and corner sweeping.
You can eliminate snowplowing and cornering with a rule that clearly defines and explains an acceptable sweeping motion. We can, and absolutely should, begin proper testing and regulating of ALL equipment (And I mean shoes as well as brooms).
Do those two things and you will lessen the so-called 'Joysticking' and make the delivery and release the larger part of successful shotmaking that everyone wants it to be.
But understand this: one-sweeper techniques are not going away and will be almost impossible to stop. That genie is out of the bottle and here to stay. Yes, two brushers will always be needed to drag a draw furthest if need be. But when the weight is good and line is more critical then you will have only one person sweeping dependent upon the need; hold straight or more curl.
The only way you ever eliminate this is to eliminate sweepeing altogether. Something which never will, or should, happen.
Lastly, lets get over our foolish fear of officials watching how curlers sweep. We want our game to be big time but we are not going to be able to maintain the fantasy that we can leave rules up to the players. Every sport employs officials and we can be no different. Even golf is not without officials who can-contrary to what some believe-step in at any time and call and penalize players for violating the rules (whether it be intentional or accidental).
If I am dead wrong continuing to focus on the equipment, it seems to me you have to answer one question: are you ok with sweepers being able to drag a rock 20 extra feet or more? You can't rule this out anymore. If you are not ok with this, than you have to focus on the equipment. Even if you could somehow eradicate directional brushing, which I would agree with you that you probably cannot, there needs to be regulation on equipment just to prevent it from becoming too good at dragging a rock.
People are missing the point of Gushue's video. It plainly shows (and directly points out) that the hair brush should be banned, not that the original Hardline brush should be reinstated.
Curling, like golf, needs officials for unusual circumstances, but I'm sorry, one of the great things about both sports is how rarely they affect the play of the game. Have people forgotten what a nightmare it was when a rock was incorrectly pulled by some overzealous official when a hogline violation was incorrectly assessed. If the problem could not be remedied any other way, then fine, but since, as you say, directional sweeping in some form is here to stay, then why not simply institute strong restrictions on equipment. How would this not solve the problem?
__________________
Not Pete Steski
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02-13-16 08:43PM |
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MountainMen
Knee-Slider
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 1 |
In the USA Nationals, Brady Clark's team had hair heads that no team could replicate the result of their sweeping. Technique may be part of it, but those hair brushes are crazy!
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02-13-16 10:41PM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
lol ..
jamcan , jamcan,
good old jamcan
good old jamcam
hes a horses ...
Fresca,
More insults to anyone that does not argue with your opinion.
Haven't gotten as good one for how long now?
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02-13-16 10:53PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Why is Fresca even on here, she offers nothing of value
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