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Originally posted by gussr


Played Bradford last night. 25-25.5 seconds. 4 feet of curl. No picks. Rocks were matched and textured within the last few weeks. Still not good enough?

Practice ice is being made available upon request to all entries.

Perhaps getting an informed opinion instead of going by hearsay would be wise...

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Originally posted by tocurl
In all the talk about winning and losing and yes the ice conditions do make a difference. The OCA is made up of 200+ clubs that are mostly run by VOLUNTEERS!!!!! who are proud of their clubs that they have built. If you want ideal conditions then the entry fees will have to increase to allow the clubs be compensated for the time used in clubs. It could cost clubs many dollars to host an event with no revenue back. Rising electricity cost and other expenses are making it very hard for a small club to survive.

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Well said Rich. Best of luck in the challenge round.

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Good points RH. On the golf side of things, if there is a major or important tournament planned, then the head greenskeeper and assistants will go to a lot of trouble to ensure everything is up to snuff. A certain standard is expected...that is why you see the same set of courses getting the Canadian Open and other major golf tournaments.

Curling Regionals are important, great if a club volunteers but they need to understand that a certain set of standards need to be followed. Maybe it will mean sandpapering your rocks even if as icemaker you "don't believe in it".

I know RH has tried for many years to get the OCA to change things around...I even think for certain events it is time to do away with zones (which they have done for some of them).

It is a shame that the OCA needs to beg clubs to host regions, perhaps time to set up a rota - every 2 years it's your turn to host regionals...

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Well Behaved Women Don't Make History.

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Originally posted by Unregistered
The ice maker in Gravenhurst did what he could. I had many conversations with him and found him to be diligent and caring about his craft. The fact is the rocks are smooth on the bottom and will not curl. From the ice makers I've spoken with over the years there are two ways of getting curl, condition the rocks or build hills in the ice. The club in Gravenhurst does not believe in papering the rocks. The ice maker under the guidance of the OCA ice tech tried to warm the air temperature and ice temperature to get some curl during the second and third draws on Saturday. It did not work and created flat ice that picked very very frequently. He tried and I respect that.
Team Howard contacted the OCA two weeks before the event as we had heard the ice did not curl to any level of standards. An ice tech was dispatched to Gravenhurst but without the ability to sandpaper the rocks there was nothing to do. The rocks were profiled which I don't understand what this does to improve the conditions. In contrast, our zones were played in Midland where the ice tech papered the rocks 5 days before the zone. The competitors enjoyed a nice curl to the ice all weekend. Education needs to be done so clubs, the OCA and players understand how ice and rocks curl. Canada Curling stone can help any club that wants ice to curl. Call them. If you don't want ice to curl that's fine too. I get that some club members might enjoy curling on straight ice. There are standards for championship ice though. The Ontario regional is two levels away from the world championships!!! Championship conditions need to be strived for. I understand that this is not possible everywhere. It still needs to be the goal and I don't think it was in this instance. There are so many sites required by the OCA to run their events they will take any facility that will donate their building. I get it! This is a great reason for change and should be a factor when determining a better system.

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I feel bad for the members of the Gravenhurst Curling Club and all those other clubs whose rocks don't curl!

So here's how to fix everything.

Ditch zones. Provincial final consists of previous winner, the top year-to-date CTRS team (who isn't also the previous winner), and eight qualifiers from the four regional 16 team (max) double knockout tournaments, subject to the following:

- teams apply to play in their regional tournament. The top 16 CTRS teams who enter get to play in the tournament. This could be fiddled with, such as to allow last year's qualifiers in (or not) or guarantee an entry to last year's junior men's champion, etc.

- if a region has more than 16 entries, extra teams go on a wait list and can be invited to play in regions with fewer than 16 entries by the deadline.

- regionals are always played on the same first weekend of January and are seeded by CTRS standings among those teams

- clubs selected for regions will get the benefit of assistance from expert ice-makers who will do some work on that club's ice during a week or so when the club might be closed for the holidays anyway, getting it in suitable shape for the tournament, training the club's ice staff/volunteers, and donating the necessary modern equipment for that club to keep. Then the club gets good ice for a while and their members might see the merits of updated ice making techniques and equipment and hopefully they can keep it up. This could actually be expanded all the way back to the beginning of that club's season - not that the experts would always be there, they they would be there for assessment of the situation, installation, some better equipment could be donated in advance for the club to keep,and a longer training period. If a club is not interested in all this assistance and equipment they wouldn't apply to host a regional tournament. And some clubs don't need this assistance anyway.

All problems solved. Please make cheques payable to ngm

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Originally posted by Shawzy


I think this is a great point here. As an icemaker myself I know that we are always striving for better ice at all levels. That's why I'm so adamant about teams still having to execute shots; sometimes we've done all we can to make a good sheet of ice but we're ultimately not the ones with control over how the game plays out. To hear people complaining about the ice and how it ruined an event does a discredit to the hard work icemakers put in just to allow the sport to take place.

The one part of this post that I really want to highlight here is that, despite the best efforts of the teams and the OCA to talk to the icemakers and effect change, there are a lot of icemakers out there that refuse to let another icemaker work on their ice or refuse to listen to the advice of fellow professionals (not that I'm accusing the icemaker in Gravenhurst of being particularly close-minded). As your post shows, it's not as if no effort is put in to ensure quality ice but sometimes you reach a point where you can't push an icemaker further out of their comfort zone (and you can't change the location of an event a week or two before it occurs).

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quote:

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Originally posted by ngm
I feel bad for the members of the Gravenhurst Curling Club and all those other clubs whose rocks don't curl!

So here's how to fix everything.

Ditch zones. Provincial final consists of previous winner, the top year-to-date CTRS team (who isn't also the previous winner), and eight qualifiers from the four regional 16 team (max) double knockout tournaments, subject to the following:

- teams apply to play in their regional tournament. The top 16 CTRS teams who enter get to play in the tournament. This could be fiddled with, such as to allow last year's qualifiers in (or not) or guarantee an entry to last year's junior men's champion, etc.

- if a region has more than 16 entries, extra teams go on a wait list and can be invited to play in regions with fewer than 16 entries by the deadline.

- regionals are always played on the same first weekend of January and are seeded by CTRS standings among those teams

- clubs selected for regions will get the benefit of assistance from expert ice-makers who will do some work on that club's ice during a week or so when the club might be closed for the holidays anyway, getting it in suitable shape for the tournament, training the club's ice staff/volunteers, and donating the necessary modern equipment for that club to keep. Then the club gets good ice for a while and their members might see the merits of updated ice making techniques and equipment and hopefully they can keep it up. This could actually be expanded all the way back to the beginning of that club's season - not that the experts would always be there, they they would be there for assessment of the situation, installation, some better equipment could be donated in advance for the club to keep,and a longer training period. If a club is not interested in all this assistance and equipment they wouldn't apply to host a regional tournament. And some clubs don't need this assistance anyway.

All problems solved. Please make cheques payable to ngm

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Originally posted by Unregistered


I'm sorry Shawzy, but you've missed the crux of RH's comment about the ice conditions - that the randomness inserted into the path of the stone makes the execution of said shot, random. This is what you've been missing this whole time, and still don't seem to understand.

Knowing now that you are an ice maker, it makes sense. You've got a strong bias here as you're perceiving an attack at you or somebody like you.

Please try to understand that further to RH's point, it is possible to criticize the conditions WITHOUT criticizing or minimizing the hard work of the people involved. Perhaps if you can concede this, you'll begin to look at this in an objective light. Because your first paragraph seems to think that RH is agreeing with you - while he is in fact, disagreeing completely.

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Originally posted by Shawzy


Try making an actual point instead of accusing me of not understanding something. I assure you that my mental faculties are up to the task. Just because I don't take your word as gospel does not make you the king of understanding.

Yes, RH is saying that the ice is becoming unpredictable, but I'm beyond the previous argument about better teams playing better (which you don't seem to be) and I am trying to add some perspective to a discussion of how to make it better (again, which you don't seem to be). His post also displays a great deal of understanding about what goes into icemaking, which is something that others on here are discrediting. Am I allowed to say something from a non-player perspective (which I also have, by the way), or should I just shut up and toe the party line?

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Originally posted by Unregistered
You are absolutely allowed to 'say something', but if it's deemed bullsh*t, prepare to get called on it 'round these parts. As I expect the same in return.

Good day.

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Last edited by on 01-06-15 at 02:13PM

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Originally posted by outurn


Your ideas have some merit, but the top 16 teams should be determined by net earnings, not CTRS standings. So if you pay 5k in entries and only earn 2k, then you are -3k. To reward teams for quantity of play, and not quality of play is ridiculous.

The CTRS point system is a crock, and is designed to keep the same teams on top.

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Originally posted by outurn


Your ideas have some merit, but the top 16 teams should be determined by net earnings, not CTRS standings. So if you pay 5k in entries and only earn 2k, then you are -3k. To reward teams for quantity of play, and not quality of play is ridiculous.

The CTRS point system is a crock, and is designed to keep the same teams on top.

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I can agree with everything that RH is saying in his post. I am in that other 20-30 teams bracket in Ontario in which we play and attempt to qualify for the Tankard but without putting in the "adequate" training and time that the 30-40 teams currently do. But yet I totally agree.
We play in a club (Napanee) with an ice maker who is constantly learning the "new" way of making ice and using the current tools and trades of icemaking that are used at championship level events. We have incredible ice! 5 feet of curl and 28 seconds. I guarantee you that if someone from the "old school" ice makers group made the ice (using the same rocks) it would not be near as good or as consistent. To RH's point there are ways to make and control good ice (good rocks certainly help). and we (as curlers) need to ensure that championship level events are being played on the best surfaces as possible. You want to play intermediate mens or fairfield zones on any ice surface thats fine but not the events that lead to the Brier.
On a side note I completely agree with the argument that teams such as Howard and Epping should get direct entry into provincials. These teams earn the right to play in these events because of the level of dedication they give to the sport year in and year out and it shows in the $$ won and the CTRS points accummulated. Develope a system that rewards this commitment to the sport. I have also had discussions with Mr. Bakes (who no longer is in his role with the OCA)about adapting a new system and it appears that these types of conversations get lost in the political shuffle of OCA meetings.
As with anything in sport. You have to adapt, and we as curlers should not be stuck in the past and adapt to what will grow the game.

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easily the most competitive and hardest region to get out of is taking place this weekend. region 2 contains kean, epping and corner

2 of those 3 have to be favored to get out but we all know what happened to glenn last weekend.

i will go ahead and say epping will get through. kean has had a rough season so far but i still think he'll get through

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There is nothing earth shattering about this subject, trust me. As curlers, we have talked about the antiquated play down system(s), the qualifiers and technical standards required for being allowed to hold an event at a particular club and the scope the OCA must play in bringing this all together.

The first thing that needs to happen is, the OCA has to start listening to it's members. Model change is good. Get your collective heads out of the sand and listen to the people who are in the know.

Mr. Hart knows ice, knows curling and has effectively put forward ideas which should be considered and implemented.

Listen very well OCA. To do otherwise is a complete disservice to our members and the well being of our great game of curling.

You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
There is nothing earth shattering about this subject, trust me. As curlers, we have talked about the antiquated play down system(s), the qualifiers and technical standards required for being allowed to hold an event at a particular club and the scope the OCA must play in bringing this all together.

The first thing that needs to happen is, the OCA has to start listening to it's members. Model change is good. Get your collective heads out of the sand and listen to the people who are in the know.

Mr. Hart knows ice, knows curling and has effectively put forward ideas which should be considered and implemented.

Listen very well OCA. To do otherwise is a complete disservice to our members and the well being of our great game of curling.

You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality

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Originally posted by albetts


Extremely well said. Posts like yours are well worth reading.

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Jim Corrigan here, rising from a technological slumber to respond to the comments made by Rich Hart.

I could not agree more with everything that Rich said, but I'd like to comment on one specific aspect of his thoughts - that on 'conditioning' rocks.

I am an old-time straight ice player. If persuaded with beverages, I can put forward an arcane defense of the era, best summarized by: "There was a time in the game when you could not be wide either."

I was slow to accept the scraping of rocks to make them curl. Among other things, it made our cherished rock books into fire starters. But it seemed to me to be taking an advantage away from the truly pure shooters in the game.

That was then ... in the late 1990s.

Now, I play at the Vernon Curling Club. Its Manager and Head Icemaker, is Dave Merklinger. Yes, THAT Dave Merklinger.

Dave and his Staff have a seasonal schedule for 'conditioning' our rocks. As a result, we routinely play on ice that is as close to Arena conditions as can be made in a regular curling club.

It is fantastic to play on ice like this on a weekly basis at the club curling level! Richard's point, echoed here, is that there's no secret of how to make fast swingy ice in this era.

There was a time when one had to throw full takeout weight to make draws for the first third of a game. There was a time when a half-buried rock could not be hit. Those times are gone. Assuming that everyone, not just elite curlers, wants to play the game under its best circumstances, it just makes sense to 'condition' (scrape for the naysayers) rocks so that the ice is both fast and swingy.

Like Brylcreem and 8-track cassettes, straight ice should be a thing of the past. As Rich points out, the technology exists.

Jim

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Well said Bugman! Well said!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
Jim Corrigan here, rising from a technological slumber to respond to the comments made by Rich Hart.

I could not agree more with everything that Rich said, but I'd like to comment on one specific aspect of his thoughts - that on 'conditioning' rocks.

I am an old-time straight ice player. If persuaded with beverages, I can put forward an arcane defense of the era, best summarized by: "There was a time in the game when you could not be wide either."

I was slow to accept the scraping of rocks to make them curl. Among other things, it made our cherished rock books into fire starters. But it seemed to me to be taking an advantage away from the truly pure shooters in the game.

That was then ... in the late 1990s.

Now, I play at the Vernon Curling Club. Its Manager and Head Icemaker, is Dave Merklinger. Yes, THAT Dave Merklinger.

Dave and his Staff have a seasonal schedule for 'conditioning' our rocks. As a result, we routinely play on ice that is as close to Arena conditions as can be made in a regular curling club.

It is fantastic to play on ice like this on a weekly basis at the club curling level! Richard's point, echoed here, is that there's no secret of how to make fast swingy ice in this era.

There was a time when one had to throw full takeout weight to make draws for the first third of a game. There was a time when a half-buried rock could not be hit. Those times are gone. Assuming that everyone, not just elite curlers, wants to play the game under its best circumstances, it just makes sense to 'condition' (scrape for the naysayers) rocks so that the ice is both fast and swingy.

Like Brylcreem and 8-track cassettes, straight ice should be a thing of the past. As Rich points out, the technology exists.

Jim

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Originally posted by Shawzy


If a top 10 team can't handle imperfect ice then they don't deserve to consider themselves a top 10 team. Both teams play on the same ice and the "top 10" team should still be better at adjusting.

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Originally posted by Justintwiss


Im so sick of hearing about bad ice being the reason they lost. They get spoiled all year long playing on perfect slam ice with perfect rock where bumper weight can make a cross house triple. Welcome to the real world again boys where ice and rocks are not perfect and you actually have to put some thought into broom placement. If a world class team cant figure it out and win then too bad. Congrats to the teams that did qualify and best of luck at provs

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1. zones, regions and provincials need to be held on consistant ice. It doesn't have to have huge curl, but it needs to be reasonaby readable.

2. Teams that want to get through zones, regions and provincials would be smart to play a few events on club ice. I think Tea Howard has forgotten how to play on less than perfect ice and it cost them two years in a row. The challenge round will not be a gimme.

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Originally posted by Unregistered
1. zones, regions and provincials need to be held on consistant ice. It doesn't have to have huge curl, but it needs to be reasonaby readable.

2. Teams that want to get through zones, regions and provincials would be smart to play a few events on club ice. I think Tea Howard has forgotten how to play on less than perfect ice and it cost them two years in a row. The challenge round will not be a gimme.

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