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| 03-05-15 10:01AM |
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Par
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 407 |
quote:
Originally posted by mcgregorm89
It's like beating a dead horse with you. All teams have a chance to come to the brier, some get sent home because they don't make the cut, think of golf or being eliminated in the playoffs.
If you're in a golf tournament and you don't make the cut, you've played 36 holes out of the scheduled 72. All the players in the tournament started out on an even footing. And you have played yourself into a position from which you no longer have any realistic chance to recover.
If you're eliminated in the playoffs (from a STOH or a Brier), you played the full 11-game round robin, and then you got eliminated by losing a knockout game.
In both cases, the event structure allows some time for the cream to rise to the top, so to speak. But here we have an event where you can be eliminated after only two games, even if you win one of them. So your analogies are poor, to say the least.
My problem with the current structure is not about "relegation" in itself, but partly about the way in which it was done, and mostly about the way it is set up.
In contrast to your golf analogy, what we have here is a system where you can miss the cut after only a couple of holes, even if you are tied with somebody else who makes the cut. And meanwhile the majority of the field are not even involved yet, and never in any danger of missing the cut.
This is why some of us have been proposing alternative structures in which all teams would start out on an equal footing, and they would all get to play a significant number of games before anyone got eliminated.
It is entirely possible to do this -- as Curling Canada proves every year when it runs the national Junior championships -- and the arguments against using the same system for the STOH and the Brier seem mean-spirited, short-sighted, and (quite frankly) disingenuous.
I (and many others) believe that the current system is not worthy of a national championship, that Canadian curling deserves much better than this.
But as you say, it's like beating a dead horse -- because the people who defend the current structure keep coming back at us with nonsense "analogies" and BS insults, rather than dealing with the issues we have been raising.
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| 03-05-15 10:20AM |
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mcgregorm89
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 210 |
quote:
Originally posted by Par
If you're in a golf tournament and you don't make the cut, you've played 36 holes out of the scheduled 72. All the players in the tournament started out on an even footing. And you have played yourself into a position from which you no longer have any realistic chance to recover.
If you're eliminated in the playoffs (from a STOH or a Brier), you played the full 11-game round robin, and then you got eliminated by losing a knockout game.
In both cases, the event structure allows some time for the cream to rise to the top, so to speak. But here we have an event where you can be eliminated after only two games, even if you win one of them. So your analogies are poor, to say the least.
My problem with the current structure is not about "relegation" in itself, but partly about the way in which it was done, and mostly about the way it is set up.
In contrast to your golf analogy, what we have here is a system where you can miss the cut after only a couple of holes, even if you are tied with somebody else who makes the cut. And meanwhile the majority of the field are not even involved yet, and never in any danger of missing the cut.
This is why some of us have been proposing alternative structures in which all teams would start out on an equal footing, and they would all get to play a significant number of games before anyone got eliminated.
It is entirely possible to do this -- as Curling Canada proves every year when it runs the national Junior championships -- and the arguments against using the same system for the STOH and the Brier seem mean-spirited, short-sighted, and (quite frankly) disingenuous.
I (and many others) believe that the current system is not worthy of a national championship, that Canadian curling deserves much better than this.
But as you say, it's like beating a dead horse -- because the people who defend the current structure keep coming back at us with nonsense "analogies" and BS insults, rather than dealing with the issues we have been raising.
People whining on an Internet forum isn't exactly the best way to get this changed but you know what just continue to cry. In 1927 the west was only represented by one team and ontario had three entries, Quebec 2 and nova scotia and new Brunswick with one and they called it the dominion national championship yet half of the country wasn't even given a chance. Today every part of Canada at least has a chance.
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| 03-05-15 10:39AM |
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rick8end
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2014
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 202 |
quote:
Originally posted by Stoner
Are you kidding, Reid has done fairly well, they are still in it. McEwan has had so many chances to get in and never has, they just don't have what it takes to win big games, I don't think he would be any better.
A .500 record must be the new definition for "doing fairly well". And Reid's rink could easily be 3-5 if a Jim Cotter rock didn't pick causing a 3 point swing. As for McEwan not doing any better, he'd likely be the only legitimate contender to the obnoxious (IMO) Jacobs rink.
I don't think Reid has got a lot of support out there. He often seems to be facing a lot of granite. That said, he's 3-5 in draws to determine the hammer so he hasn't been all that sharp himself.
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| 03-05-15 10:55AM |
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nicecontroleasy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 13 |
quote:
Originally posted by rick8end
A .500 record must be the new definition for "doing fairly well". And Reid's rink could easily be 3-5 if a Jim Cotter rock didn't pick causing a 3 point swing. As for McEwan not doing any better, he'd likely be the only legitimate contender to the obnoxious (IMO) Jacobs rink.
I don't think Reid has got a lot of support out there. He often seems to be facing a lot of granite. That said, he's 3-5 in draws to determine the hammer so he hasn't been all that sharp himself.
Agreed. Looks like Reid is facing some harsh last rock throws so as a team looks like they are not at their potential this week. But they are not done yet and still alive.
As for if Mcewen was in the field? It would be foolish to bet against these guys not being on the podium. I'm not saying they would win it but look at their past results! They make playoffs and finals in everything they play in. If they made the Brier it would not likely be any different.
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| 03-05-15 11:14AM |
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johnnysmoke
Drawmaster
Registered: Nov 2002
Location:
Posts: 612 |
quote:
Originally posted by fresca
rick8end
your single arent you ...
id say ALL THE CURLERS THERE are doing "well"
I don't get this post. Your single what?
As for all the curlers there doing well, Jamie Koe would beg to differ. After a modicum of success the past 3 years, his team is 0-8, and Kevin has beaten his brother's team in every head to head meeting in recent memory.
I'll bet they don't discuss curling at family reunions, just to keep the peace.
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| 03-05-15 11:22AM |
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Par
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 407 |
quote:
Originally posted by mcgregorm89
People whining on an Internet forum isn't exactly the best way to get this changed but you know what just continue to cry. In 1927 the west was only represented by one team and ontario had three entries, Quebec 2 and nova scotia and new Brunswick with one and they called it the dominion national championship yet half of the country wasn't even given a chance. Today every part of Canada at least has a chance.
In other words,
"What we have now is better than it was in 1927 and therefore anyone who doesn't like it is whining."
Is that supposed to be a cogent argument?
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| 03-05-15 11:24AM |
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InTurnDump
Knee-Slider
Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 5 |
quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
Real chance for a cluster-flugg today as both 6-3 teams play each other in morning draw.
Quebec vs. Team Canada
The Flying Frenchmen are showing signs of greatness and Canada has been a different squad since Johnnny Mope got replaced as both skip and last-rock thrower. Doc Simmons is a great story.
Sask'n also has 3 losses but that could change this afternoon as they have to do battle with the baffling Alberta team. Kevin Koe had early excuses that he was sickboy but now they're reeling.
4 losses should be good for 4th or tie-breaker spot. Still prolly and outside chance (where's curling mathboy here) 5 losses can slither into a tie-breaker.
Whats the point though? Jacobs is killing it.
Only hope is someone comes into Sunday's final full of hope and vinegar - and of course, that Jacobs team is a bit out of sorts.
For as much flack as you get Legend I actually enjoy your ramblings and insight. Some people are just way to serious.
I also appreciate your donation in the brier pool Reischek is running That being said I will also be making a donation x4
I would enjoy seeing the Giants get slayed on Sunday in the final, this could be the year of the Gush!!! The guy has all the shots in the book but I still dont think he calls the best game. But really who am I to question his greatness when I cant even get out of D division in a rec league Mind you its a Manitoba league so thats probably A division on the rock
I think if Reid runs the table they could do some damage, would be nice to see Laycock in the final as well. Cleary some Prairie bias happening
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| 03-05-15 11:42AM |
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mcgregorm89
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 210 |
quote:
Originally posted by Par
In other words,
"What we have now is better than it was in 1927 and therefore anyone who doesn't like it is whining."
Is that supposed to be a cogent argument?
Curling and the brier have over come many format changes and I'm sure at all of these changes a bunch of nay sayers tried to stop it. It's more a national championship today than it was in 1927, 1951 and even 2014. People can go on that it's not fair but was it fair that it took to 1975 for the territories to even be represented? Was it fair that it took Nunavut 16 years to get a spot it the brier? Suggestions have been Nunavut shouldn't even have a spot and should be grouped with one territory, how would nova scotia feel being one entry with PEI nd New Brunswick. Or having one western team, which of course would never happen. This is the first time in time in 88 years that every part of Canada has equal representation.
Weaker provinces had their chance and failed to produce, it's time to have more incentives for success. I still say drop team Canada as it's not needed and expand the relegation round, make it similar to a challenge round.
Sitting on the Internet won't change anything, if anything it's the curlers will get things changed. Look at the grand slams vs brier boycott and how the curlers git the CCA to change. Unfortunately curling Canada isn't reading these post and if they are they don't care.
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| 03-05-15 11:55AM |
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ASquires
Knee-Slider
Registered: May 2013
Location: Waterloo, ON
Posts: 8 |
Love the Team Canada concept, and they are proving why they should be there. I personally would encourage all the teams to be included and simply expand the draw, but apparently that's not an option. So with that being said, I'd like to continue to see as many as the best teams competing to represent us at Worlds.
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| 03-05-15 01:21PM |
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Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Just wondering-why is it that the host province for the following year's Brier/Scotties is exempt from re-qualifying. If we're looking for the best field, then they should be treated like the other "losers".
It certainly won't affect ticket sales or volunteer help...will it?
__________________
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| 03-05-15 01:36PM |
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Sean
Administrator
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1992 |
Gushue gives Jacobs his first loss of the Brier  Could this be NFLD's year? 
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| 03-05-15 01:42PM |
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Par
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 407 |
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobogie
Just wondering-why is it that the host province for the following year's Brier/Scotties is exempt from re-qualifying. If we're looking for the best field, then they should be treated like the other "losers".
It certainly won't affect ticket sales or volunteer help...will it?
Yeah, it's all "performance-based" ... except for the exceptions.
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| 03-05-15 01:54PM |
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CaptMorgan
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 900 |
quote:
Originally posted by Par
In other words,
"What we have now is better than it was in 1927 and therefore anyone who doesn't like it is whining."
Is that supposed to be a cogent argument?
And your argument is NS was barred from the Brier.
They werent. They had a chance to beat PEI. They sucked.
Maybe next time they will practice harder and win and perhaps even do well at the Brier.
So lets hear some more of your whining.
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| 03-05-15 01:55PM |
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Stoner
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 614 |
quote:
Originally posted by Ventry
This has nothing to do with one team having to play another three or four games of curling prior to the brier.
To your point though, its a two way street.
Is it fair that teams from the maritimes are at a competitive disadvantage? It is not feasible for them to travel to the big events and gain the experience needed for success. They can compete at the junior level but not as well at the adult level.
It's apparently quite feasible for team Gushue to travel, so just because they are from the maritimes has nothing to do with it, if a team is good enough, gets sponsorship and/or gets/has money, then they can travel, like I'm pretty sure Mark Dacey could travel and put together a better team if he wanted to, but at least part of the reason why he doesn't is because of his family.
Last edited by Stoner on 03-05-15 at 01:58PM
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| 03-05-15 02:00PM |
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Par
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 407 |
PEI and Ontario are now out of contention, along with NWT and NB.
Everybody else still has a chance to stay alive until the weekend, although BC is hanging by a thread.
NO and NFLD are assured a playoff spot. Canada is assured at least a tie-breaker.
And a big logjam is still possible. ;-)
Last edited by Par on 03-05-15 at 02:10PM
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| 03-05-15 02:02PM |
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Stoner
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 614 |
quote:
Originally posted by mcgregorm89
Casey has been at all of the slams and over in Europe and so has Gushue. It's only another 3 games played its actually an advantage if you look at it. That's 3 more games to read the ice, and know the rocks.
That's a poor argument, because you see in tennis and I'm pretty sure other sports, they have qualifying too, it's not necessarily an advantage, as it's a weaker team/player who get's in, in tennis the qualifiers often don't do that well, even though they supposedly have an advantage by playing on the courts before other guys.
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| 03-05-15 02:05PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobogie
Just wondering-why is it that the host province for the following year's Brier/Scotties is exempt from re-qualifying. If we're looking for the best field, then they should be treated like the other "losers".
It certainly won't affect ticket sales or volunteer help...will it?
It is to have a host team in the event for ticket sales to ensure the event is successful off the ice. It happens in many other curling and sporting events.
World Championships
Olympics (all sports)
Memorial Cup Hockey
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| 03-05-15 02:10PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
happy to see pei get a win and avoid relegation
speaking of relegation im pretty sure northwest territores is relegated with pei winning this afternoon.
finish on the same win loss record as new brunswick and they get relegated because they lost to them in the round robin.
even if ontario finishes 2 and 9 and loses to north west territories it wont matter since ontario is hosying the birer next year
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| 03-05-15 02:15PM |
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Radio-Man
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2015
Location: Ontario & Santa Monica
Posts: 268 |
Disappointed with Ontario's performance. I never expected them to make the playoffs, but I figured 5-6 wins was possible, certainly 5.
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"I'm not seeking penance for what I've done, Father. I'm asking forgiveness... for what I'm about to do"
"It means that I'm not the Samaritan. That I'm not the priest, or the Levite. That I am the ill intent...who set upon the traveler on a road that he should not have been on."
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| 03-05-15 02:18PM |
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Stoner
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 614 |
quote:
Originally posted by Radio-Man
Disappointed with Ontario's performance. I never expected them to make the playoffs, but I figured 5-6 wins was possible, certainly 5.
Nah, it's their 1st Brier and they are really young, this kind of performance is expected of such a team.
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| 03-05-15 02:21PM |
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Radio-Man
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2015
Location: Ontario & Santa Monica
Posts: 268 |
quote:
Originally posted by Stoner
Nah, it's their 1st Brier and they are really young, this kind of performance is expected of such a team.
Understood, but I still expected more. It's a learning experience at least.
__________________
"I'm not seeking penance for what I've done, Father. I'm asking forgiveness... for what I'm about to do"
"It means that I'm not the Samaritan. That I'm not the priest, or the Levite. That I am the ill intent...who set upon the traveler on a road that he should not have been on."
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| 03-05-15 02:29PM |
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Stoner
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 614 |
quote:
Originally posted by Radio-Man
Understood, but I still expected more. It's a learning experience at least.
Yeah, Epping may or may not have done better, maybe a little better. Too bad Ontario is such a tough province that Kean might not be back in the Brier for awhile.
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| 03-05-15 02:31PM |
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Stoner
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 614 |
Pretty incredible that team Jacobs/NO has won the draw to the button in at least 9 of their games to start with hammer.
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| 03-05-15 02:36PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote:
Originally posted by Radio-Man
Disappointed with Ontario's performance. I never expected them to make the playoffs, but I figured 5-6 wins was possible, certainly 5.
im with you. first brier or not i thought theyd do better than this
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| 03-05-15 03:37PM |
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Par
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 407 |
With Ontario out and Alberta and Manitoba in trouble, I've been wondering ... does anybody know when the last time Ontario, Alberta, and Manitoba have all missed the playoffs at the same Brier?
I can tell you that in the past 30 years there has only been one Brier final that did not include at least one of them. That was 2000, when Greg McAulay (BC) beat Russ Howard (NB).
Last edited by Par on 03-05-15 at 03:45PM
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