Disclaimer: CurlingZone does not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any Content posted on any Forums area and you acknowledge that any reliance upon such Content shall be at your sole risk. Any Content placed on any Forums area by users and anonymous posters are the views of the user posting the statement, and do not represent the views of CurlingZone or our partners, advertisers or sponsors. By posting anonymously, you are allowing your IP address to be displayed for identification purposes. CurlingZone reserves the right to remove any post at its discretion without warning or explanation.
02-11-16 03:44PM |
|
bearbells
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2011
Location:
Posts: 27 |
USA Mens & Womens Championship
I am at a loss as to why USCA holds these "championships". Due to the criteria set out by the powers-that-be, John Schuster and Erika Brown and their teams were already the US champions due to the points they got from playing throughout the season. Fair enough, they put in the time, effort and money to qualify.
Why then, does the USCA hold this fake event? It is time and money for the teams who travel to the site to play for....2nd place or lower. Championships are played out to declare a winner. If USCA has to spend money for this event, would it not be better spent in other areas?
It just astounds me why teams would bother attending. And to have a "playoff" after the winner is declared is just ridiculous.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-12-16 10:42AM |
|
youngen
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 99 |
1. The event is held to determine who the World Rep team is. Shuster and Brown had to play and make the top 3 to secure that nomination. If they had not made the top 3 then someone else would have been eligible to secure that nomination.
2. Teams attend the event for the chance to win it. Winning the Nationals is worth many things. It brings consideration for a non-HPP team to be looked at for being brought into the HPP (like Shuster last year). It also brings the possibility of going to World's if you have gained enough OOM points and any team with more OOM points finishes low enough for you to win the World Rep nomination.
If you read many past threads the topic is covered pretty extensively already.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-12-16 11:10AM |
|
peglegg
Hitting Paint
Registered: Mar 2005
Location:
Posts: 101 |
While I think it is a ridiculous idea, it is easy enough conceptually to separate the National Championship out from the World Championship qualification. They are simply holding a National Championship in Jacksonville.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-12-16 11:19AM |
|
MNIceman
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159 |
The US High Performance program seems to have taken the stance that the main reason the US has not been able to medal at Worlds more often is due to the method of selecting the World reps.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-12-16 11:59AM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Down in the US threads there are many, many comments...I dare say more "Con" than "Pro".
...but hey, they've brought curling to Florida...
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-12-16 12:47PM |
|
AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
I've found that if you look at it as the "National Finals Bonspiel" (kinda like Rodeo has the National Finals Rodeo at the end of the season) it makes more sense.
It is possible to wrap up the big prize for the season ("Cowboy of the Year") before The NFR...but the NFR *usually* still has a significant impact in determining the champion...it may not be the guy who wins the NFR, but the NFR had an impact in the final sorting.
The NFR is also the one event a year where folks who aren't Rodeo fans might engage...a lot of the sponsorship dollars and such are contracted in and around the NFR.
The USCA has positioned curling to be following that model.
Do I *like* it? hells no.
Do I have a voice to change it? Yeah, that's a no.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-14-16 05:25PM |
|
bearbells
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2011
Location:
Posts: 27 |
US Mens & Womens Championship
Facts:
Clark beats Schuster in all 3 games, outscoring 28-13.
Clark's Team Shooting %-2nd. Schuster's Team Shooting %-4th.
Clark - not in HPP. HPP moved 1 of his players to Brown's team.
Schuster said he would be in HPP only if they did not change his team.
Erika Brown's team - not in HPP. Team % - #1. Roth(HPP)% -#3
Brown goes to World Championship as winner of USA Womens.
Clark: What does he get? Going to the Slam Championships. Will be "considered" for HPP next year. He does NOT get to go to Worlds even though he is US Mens Champions.
Does this make any sense?
The coaches of the HPP are dismal failures. What does it take for them to be sacked? In other sports, they would be shown the door.
USCA needs to look at the entire HPP program and start thinking outside the box and make wholesale changes. Right now, it has to be so frustrating to curlers who are willing to make sacrifices for their love of the game.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-14-16 09:55PM |
|
curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
Re: US Mens & Womens Championship
quote: Originally posted by bearbells
Right now, it has to be so frustrating to curlers who are willing to make sacrifices for their love of the game.
So why would it br frustrating? And exactly who are the "curlers" that are making sacrifices? Are you referring to the HPP teams or the non-HPP teams?
The reason that I think that it would not be frustrating is that the system was not changed mid year. Everyone who signed up knew the rules, adn knew if they had a shot or not to go to the worlds. I can see them not liking the system, I can see why one would wish it was a different way. By out of all the feelings, not sure why you would pick frustrating, so it makes me think that I dont understand the point you are making.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-15-16 12:03AM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Curlky's right-the curlers knew the "Rules of the Game" when they signed on-and they got a trip to Florida...Shuster's lack of performance should be a cause for concern while Erika's win comes as no surprise. Her rink is having one of, if not their best year-including a win in Toronto (although Jen & Rachel weren't there). The real concern is that the US reps at the worlds aren't getting any younger.
The curling world needs a strong, competitive American team-one that's capable of stepping up on the podium-in order to truly get to the "next level" in terms of international recognition. I've mentioned it in the US thread-the USCA's approach to the game is practically "Socialist" (of all countries). They'd be better off spending their money helping develop the game in the "new" areas (like the South and West)and leave the assembling of teams to the players-it seems to have worked in other countries-including one that's not far from their border...
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-15-16 12:23AM |
|
curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
To be a great curler, a skip has to think two, three, four steps ahead, and be able to quickly adapt based upon how thigns transpire. I think that the HPP does not get the credit for what it has done. People look at the HPP as a group that wants to create all star teams rather than allowing them to be self formed. But really, that was their opening guard. Their seoncds move was OOM points to force teams to play tough competition. Their Vice moves was to fund self formed teams like Shuster, but only after influencing how the Shuseter team was compromised. Shuster reshaped his team to pick up George and Hammy. So next, what is their skip move? I think it will be to get the younger talent from teh self formed teams to spread thier wings, and form their own teams, that if they perform well, will then get funded themselves.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-15-16 12:52AM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Curlky-I may not agree with your theory, but I admire your literary style!
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-15-16 08:38AM |
|
mattrhames
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 49 |
Re: US Mens & Womens Championship
quote: Originally posted by bearbells
Facts:
Clark beats Schuster in all 3 games, outscoring 28-13.
This is a valid, though nuanced point. Through no fault of his own, Shuster didn't need to win the last two of the three games. Indeed, the World Championship qualifying game was the final game of the RR for the Shuster team, against HPP Brown. Win that, and Shuster was assured the world rep spot.
For Shuster, the next two games were gravy on the top of a worlds spot. They were not gravy for Clark, who with the win, gets some additional playing time in events, lots of points.
This ends up, weirdly, being a good thing for USA curling because two more teams get big game experience. It is bad thing for the HPP because their teams did relatively poorly.
Shuster needs a good worlds to get Europe and Asia off the "one spot for North America" bandwagon that continues to get people on it. USA curling needs to get more people caring about the game in the US in order to stop the above from happening. Two teams still playing might help.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-15-16 10:32PM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Re: Re: US Mens & Womens Championship
quote: Originally posted by mattrhames
[QUOTE]This is a valid, though nuanced point. Through no fault of his own, Shuster didn't need to win the last two of the three games. Indeed, the World Championship qualifying game was the final game of the RR for the Shuster team, against HPP Brown. Win that, and Shuster was assured the world rep spot.
For Shuster, the next two games were gravy on the top of a worlds spot. They were not gravy for Clark, who with the win, gets some additional playing time in events, lots of points.
This ends up, weirdly, being a good thing for USA curling because two more teams get big game experience. It is bad thing for the HPP because their teams did relatively poorly.
Shuster needs a good worlds to get Europe and Asia off the "one spot for North America" bandwagon that continues to get people on it. USA curling needs to get more people caring about the game in the US in order to stop the above from happening. Two teams still playing might help.
The "One Spot nor North America" is a very dangerous thing to ask for. Curling can't afford to lose any international exposure south of the border and the World Championships need Canada more than any other single country.
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-16-16 12:19AM |
|
SmokeyJoe
Hitting Paint
Registered: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 127 |
Re: Re: US Mens & Womens Championship
quote: Originally posted by mattrhames
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bearbells
[B]Facts:
Clark beats Schuster in all 3 games, outscoring 28-13.
This is a valid, though nuanced point. Through no fault of his own, Shuster didn't need to win the last two of the three games. Indeed, the World Championship qualifying game was the final game of the RR for the Shuster team, against HPP Brown. Win that, and Shuster was assured the world rep spot.
For Shuster, the next two games were gravy on the top of a worlds spot. They were not gravy for Clark, who with the win, gets some additional playing time in events, lots of points.
This ends up, weirdly, being a good thing for USA curling because two more teams get big game experience. It is bad thing for the HPP because their teams did relatively poorly.
Shuster needs a good worlds to get Europe and Asia off the "one spot for North America" bandwagon that continues to get people on it. USA curling needs to get more people caring about the game in the US in order to stop the above from happening. Two teams still playing might help.
Appreciate the perspective of Hames. He has inspired a generation of Easties. Heater took over his team and won a National Championship. Both of the Dropkins have won Junior Championships. Corbett, Leichter, and Clawson all qualified for Mens Nationals this year.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-16-16 12:47AM |
|
dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Re: Re: Re: US Mens & Womens Championship
quote: Originally posted by Jimbobogie
The "One Spot for North America" is a very dangerous thing to ask for. Curling can't afford to lose any international exposure south of the border and the World Championships need Canada more than any other single country.
Curlers in North America, of course, agree with your assessment. But not sure that it is a universal feeling in other continents. It all depends on whose ox is being gored.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-16-16 05:12PM |
|
RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
Re: US Mens & Womens Championship
quote: Originally posted by bearbells
Facts:
Clark beats Schuster in all 3 games, outscoring 28-13.
Clark's Team Shooting %-2nd. Schuster's Team Shooting %-4th.
Clark - not in HPP. HPP moved 1 of his players to Brown's team.
Schuster said he would be in HPP only if they did not change his team.
Erika Brown's team - not in HPP. Team % - #1. Roth(HPP)% -#3
Brown goes to World Championship as winner of USA Womens.
Clark: What does he get? Going to the Slam Championships. Will be "considered" for HPP next year. He does NOT get to go to Worlds even though he is US Mens Champions.
Does this make any sense?
The coaches of the HPP are dismal failures. What does it take for them to be sacked? In other sports, they would be shown the door.
USCA needs to look at the entire HPP program and start thinking outside the box and make wholesale changes. Right now, it has to be so frustrating to curlers who are willing to make sacrifices for their love of the game.
You make a good point that it is difficult at the moment to discern the value-added for the HPP coaching effort and financial investment. For the non-junior teams, HP teams look like they are struggling to rise significantly above internal non-HPP competition. The HPP program keeps pointing to OOM points, but these are accumulative, and not necessarily a measure of relative playing strength. I hope someone is quantitatively monitoring our results against strong competition. What we need to know is whether or not we are gaining or lagging with regard to teams we might expect to meet at the world or olympic-level competition.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
|
All times are GMT. The time now is . |
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|