|
Disclaimer: CurlingZone does not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any Content posted on any Forums area and you acknowledge that any reliance upon such Content shall be at your sole risk. Any Content placed on any Forums area by users and anonymous posters are the views of the user posting the statement, and do not represent the views of CurlingZone or our partners, advertisers or sponsors. By posting anonymously, you are allowing your IP address to be displayed for identification purposes. CurlingZone reserves the right to remove any post at its discretion without warning or explanation.
| 11-21-15 10:33PM |
|
jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by s germain
I am on the fence about Hi-tech brooms. I think it boils down to what the top teams want. If they are for or against it its good enough for me.
Nice. What are you? A sheep? Use your brain and grow some cojones.
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-21-15 10:44PM |
|
s germain
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Nov 2015
Location: Alberta
Posts: 15 |
Don't you think the people using the Brooms should have the say on whether they use them or not? They would after all be the best qualified?
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-21-15 11:50PM |
|
jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by s germain
Don't you think the people using the Brooms should have the say on whether they use them or not? They would after all be the best qualified?
So if I'm a cop and without any real evidence I arrest your parents for murder do you believe me just because I'm a cop? Because I'm supposedly best qualified because I wear a badge? Even if you know your parents are innocent?
Seriously, are you that stupid?
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-22-15 12:31AM |
|
Island Roger
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 51 |
Just getting up to speed on all of this. I'm a retired curler with a few purple hearts in my closet. I predicted this would happen in the late 90's when the hammer made its first appearance. Switching the foundation of sweeping had had the biggest single impact on the game other than ice conditions. The game is at its best when 75% of the outcome is place in the hands of the thrower. Not in the hands of the sweeper.
Just my opinion. If we were all still using Horse Hair we wouldn't be having this conversation and the value of good sweeper combined with good throwers would be at an all time high.
Just my thoughts.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-22-15 08:12AM |
|
livem1
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 61 |
The Curling Show just released a podcast with Glenn Howard
http://www.thecurlingshow.com
He confirms a scenario that I've made earlier in the thread.
....that BP did come out with a head recently that used a plastic insert and a fabric that closer to effectiveness of the the icePad than the blackhead. The brought them along to The National. It's unclear how much they used them...but, they did say that when they played Kevin Koe (also BP), they both ditched them to play with the old brushes (well, the allowed EQ's) that is.
He also confirmed that BP does have a head above EQ (not Blackhead) that is not allowed under the new spec's (I think they were implying EQ+). But, they must've taken it off the ice prior....during the player detente.
So, now....you can bring into conversation whatever BP brought into play at Oshawa.
Whatever side of the issue you are on....you should listen to the last 3 ep's of The Curling Show (Marc Kennedy/Ben Hebert; Archie Manavian and Glenn Howard). They are all brush heavy interviews.
In the MK/BH interview....they say they know Brad well and they had to back up when they started to say 'they know' (what he's thinking) and say 'they are sure' that Brad would love these new fabrics to be banned because he (and other super smart skips/pure throwers) stand more of a chance to be beaten by lesser skilled thinking/throwing team. Take that however you want.
As a side note....I just saw the YouTube video of Manavian showing that the icePad can't even be damaged by sweeping it on concrete (and that is with a rigid insert...so, that's flat on flat with little give). Back to the physics here, do people really think is is not causing damage and flat areas? You're using, in essence, a 'sanding block' on ice. One that apparently is relatively immune to concrete. Add to that, that you sweep the corners with the icePad (and now the BP that they came out with last week) 'completely opposite' of the 2010 Ottawa study, because it's the 'scratching'/'scoring' of the pebble that's affecting the rock behavior and not the 'polishing' (using a cordura weave like fabric, for example). That's been alluded to in this thread and before this thread.
Say what you want about foil under the BP head...but, please don't equate that with a rigid insert. The foil is flexible and it's job is to (theoretically) enhance the 'polish' and reduce the coefficient of friction....not to increase the effectiveness of 'scoring' the pebble. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned either at some point when they've found a threshold of acceptability. But, I guess I'm not seeing why people are having a hard time separating out the act of 'sanding' the ice vs 'polishing'.
I'd love to have an ice guy post here on their thoughts.
Last edited by livem1 on 11-22-15 at 08:36AM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-22-15 08:27AM |
|
livem1
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 61 |
quote:
Originally posted by shaqdaddy
FYI Blackhead brush has never been for sale and was never intended for sale. Prototype given to BP teams to 'prove a point'.....nice behaviour!
Um, they did use them and they weren't illegal under the rules and icePad teams (and others) didn't want them. They could've been used the next weekend if they had liked, right?
So, when did the icePad become the default acceptable level. Now, maybe they should've done what Glenn said they did for last weekend's spiel and bring out something closer to the 'effectiveness' of the icePad instead of the blackhead first. And then, apparently under the logic icePad people are giving.....only, Goldline, Asham and Olson teams would be complaining and no ban would be in place on fabrics/inserts/waterproofing because the BP tainted CC and WCF would be in the game and nobody would care about the integrity of the sport at that point.
And if that BP head they used last weekend was 10% more effective or 20% more effective....what do you think Hardline's and Hardline's user's response would be? Users start jumping over because BP made a more closely legal head and HL loses some business? HL gets to the drawing board and comes up with another fabric to become more 'efficient' than the new BP EQ++ (apparently they wouldn't be able to do that because they aren't big enough to find an alternate 'compliant' fabric to the one they have now).
So, here we are again....."thiiiiiiird base!" where and when does it end?
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-22-15 08:33AM |
|
shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
Livem1, you need to get your facts. Don't feel bad as most others are not either. I have a HL and the insert is NOT rigid, rather quite flexible.
__________________
shaqdaddy
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-22-15 08:40AM |
|
livem1
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 61 |
quote:
Originally posted by shaqdaddy
Livem1, you need to get your facts. Don't feel bad as most others are not either. I have a HL and the insert is NOT rigid, rather quite flexible.
There are icePads at my club and I've seen and felt brand new and used ones....I know what they are (and I've seen the inserts and I've felt what seems to be 'directionality' on the fabric...but, we can avoid debating that part). Please don't tell me to 'know my facts'. When you post...act like a curler on the ice and default to the high road and ask me if "you've seen an icePad before in person". If you can't see that your disrespectful 'abrasive' posts are hurting the foundation of the game as much as the brush debacle we're in now....I can't do anything about that.
If you're trying to tell me that somehow under 30-50 pounds of compression that they are not acting like a sanding block vs a foam back only....I think we'll continue to disagree with each other.
Last edited by livem1 on 11-22-15 at 09:20AM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-22-15 08:57AM |
|
RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by shaqdaddy
Livem1, you need to get your facts. Don't feel bad as most others are not either. I have a HL and the insert is NOT rigid, rather quite flexible.
When that plastic insert is placed against the closed cell foam backing it is extremely resistant to deformation by pebble-sized irregularities which have a very small bending radius. In this configuration, pressure on the face of the brush by pebble is converted to stretching forces of the insert. The plastic insert is very resistant to stretching. For all intents and purposes it is equivalent to a block of wood.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-22-15 11:22AM |
|
dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
so you do independent testing of all broomheads, not some suspect video evidence presented by a partisan and very biased group. Right now it's you are guilty, here is your sentence and eventually we will get around to looking at the evidence and see if it is legit or not.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-22-15 05:38PM |
|
MakeTheFinal
Knee-Slider
Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 3 |
I own both a Hardline IcePad, and a BalancePlus LiteSpeed. The BalancePlus LiteSpeed is the normal one you can buy from them and it can curl rocks up to 8ft using conventional sweeping techniques. My team was never able to use the IcePad make rocks act like this when sweeping in the same ways.
And what does the "stiffening agent" do in the IcePad head other than keep it on top of the pebble? Almost every junior team in Sask. has at least one IcePad and no one has complained about deteriorating ice conditions.
My opinion: Ban EQ+ and leave IcePad alone!
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-22-15 10:54PM |
|
IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
technique
I saw first hand this past weekend that it's absolutely more to do with brushing technique than material. Both Team Gushue and Team Michel were brushing with one sweeper across the face of the stone at a 3/4 angle snowplowing instead of back and forth in front of the stone, and both caused the rock to "back up" at will and "curl like hell" at will. There's at least 20 30 40 other teams doing this. It's about manipulating the rock instead of sweeping for distance or trying to sweep to keep it straight. I say well done to them for figuring it out within the current rules BUT, what is this leading to? Just my opinion.... but I think they need to revert the sweeping rules back to a few years ago to sweep in front of the rock, not the side, not snowplowing, not beside, not against the grain, just back and forth, directly in front parallel to the face of the rock. ANY infraction would have the rock removed from play.
Thoughts?
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-22-15 11:29PM |
|
dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
My suggestion is to contact your association and tell them you will not enter any events they run while this ruling is in place. Maybe if they see their numbers drop and entry fees dwindle they will wait until all the independent results are in before banning anything. Pressure on your associations will lead to pressure on the governing body.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-23-15 09:24AM |
|
youngen
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 99 |
quote:
Originally posted by My three sons
Yankee, your calling out these guys cause they are fighting for the integrity and spirit of our sport. Maybe you need to spend and end or two with them and see for yourself what they are fighting for.
I have more respect for these guys now, cause they are fighting for what is right and good in this game.
You obviously want to take this game into the dark side where its ok to stab a guy in the back.
Eddy Werenich was a curler who once said, "me against you, no tricks or no games, we'll see who the best curler is". Sounds to me that you want the tables slanted in your direction.
I hope for Curling's sake we get this figured out.
My three sons,
You are entitled to your opinion and may give your respect to whomever you see fit. But, IMO, Yankee brings up a valid point that focusing solely on a long term outcome without paying attention to the actions you took to get there is not always respectable, despite the cause you are fighting for. I know Yankee, and he doesn't want curling to go into "the dark side" as you call it. But, I side with him in this matter. I understand and even support the long term goal of equipment standards and testing, but I do not show Howard or other BP teams respect in the way they have allowed their sponsor to use them in a manipulative manner at the expense of another company's well-being. That is, in my eyes, not a respectable or honest action. I do not believe that Howard and others are bad people, but just temporarily blinded from their sponsor's bias, and hope that one day they do not have to look back in disgust or regret of their actions even if they achieve the long term goal we are all looking for. I think that is the point Yankee was driving at.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-23-15 10:49AM |
|
JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote:
Originally posted by youngen
I do not believe that Howard and others are bad people, but just temporarily blinded from their sponsor's bias, and hope that one day they do not have to look back in disgust or regret of their actions even if they achieve the long term goal we are all looking for.
Good quote.
I don't think anyone is necessarily "bad people". I question their actions, but not all of their motivations.
I am glad that the point of sweeping and equipment is being raised. I don't think anyone wants to see rocks being manipulated in a manner that is completely different than anything we've seen before. But how certain elite teams and Balance Plus are raising the issue, and how the WCF and Curling Canada has responded, is a lesson on how NOT to raise and address a legitimate concern.
Long term I think this issue will change how we all look at curling, and not for the better. This was already underway with the changes towards professionalism that the Olympics have brought us, but this has definitely magnified things.
__________________
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-23-15 10:53AM |
|
RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by MakeTheFinal
And what does the "stiffening agent" do in the IcePad head other than keep it on top of the pebble?
You are exactly right that the stiffeners keep the brushing fact on top of the pebble. This significantly increases sweeping pressure by decreasing the contact area of the brush with the ice for the same applied force (body weight). This happens with ALL brushes using stiffener plates, not just IcePad. Stiffeners increase the magnitude of the effects of any brushing material. The combination of a stiffener and a textured brushing surface has a maximum effect on the control of curl through microscratching the ice. The fundamental question is how much control of curl is too much? That is a more subjective call by stewards of the game. If you can influence curl by +/- 2 feet by high-side/low-side sweeping, is that acceptable? How much or how little is acceptable? This is an important decision for maintaining the integrity of the game.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-23-15 11:12AM |
|
shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
Sponsors have been too involved, even Howard acknowledged with Gemmel, can't have BO AND GL onWCF WEBSITE and expect no bias. It Would seem sweeping methodology (corner sweeping, Plowing) has not got enough attention in this issue. Again SCIENCE data needed (longer term) but sweeper behaviour could be short term change. Also maybe short term, one brush only per game/spiel can be used? Tough to police. See Gushue won in NS with inverted Icepad that was approved locally.
__________________
shaqdaddy
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-23-15 11:30AM |
|
Beermaker
Drawmaster
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 559 |
Enough is enough already, what we need is a moratorium.
Let's say we go the Wheelchair curling route for a few spiels and see how that goes, i.e. no sweeping whatsoever. The wheelchair athletes have adapted, so let us see the elite curlers try it.
After this trial, let us bring back the hair brush for everyone, or corn I don't care which.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-23-15 04:05PM |
|
briandau
Knee-Slider
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 3 |
I'm curious if anyone has heard which brooms have been allowed at the Euros this week. Presumably this would be the first real test of the moratorium. I heard the EQ+ wasn't being allowed, EQ and TX were, and saw some IcePads being checked but no ruling. Would be interested to know whether the Norway was allowed as well.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-23-15 04:18PM |
|
RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by briandau
I'm curious if anyone has heard which brooms have been allowed at the Euros this week. Presumably this would be the first real test of the moratorium. I heard the EQ+ wasn't being allowed, EQ and TX were, and saw some IcePads being checked but no ruling. Would be interested to know whether the Norway was allowed as well.
I just watched Ulsrud play in the ECC on the World Curling Channel and his team is definitely using some Norway brush heads. So I guess they are OK at the ECC.
The EQ+ would not meet the requirements of the moratorium as I understand it, as it is clearly artificially textured on the brushing surface.
Cheers.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-23-15 04:32PM |
|
Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote:
Originally posted by milobloom
Just released a new Around The House Podcast and much broom detail is discussed...
http://curling.libsyn.com/curling-b...stephen-colbert
Bumping this up in case it gets lost in the kerfuffle in here.
If you're keeping up on this thread and you haven't listened to this yet you're missing out.
__________________
Recreational curler & resident armchair curler at Windy City Curling Club.
Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.
http://www.nerdcurl.com
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-23-15 04:40PM |
|
JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote:
Originally posted by briandau
I'm curious if anyone has heard which brooms have been allowed at the Euros this week. Presumably this would be the first real test of the moratorium. I heard the EQ+ wasn't being allowed, EQ and TX were, and saw some IcePads being checked but no ruling. Would be interested to know whether the Norway was allowed as well.
IcePads are allowed if the fabric is inverted, and the thin plastic insert is removed.
Same rules that Curling Canada has passed on to their member associations. They were in force for any playdown events over the weekend (juniors in BC for example).
__________________
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
| 11-23-15 04:53PM |
|
biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
Curling Zone's Facebook page stated Charlie Thomas was using an Icepad and refusing to abide by (12:56 Pm. November 22nd). I now see he is in the finals of the DeKalb Superspiel. Doesn't the new rules affect these cashspiels?
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
 |
| All times are GMT. The time now is . |
  |
|
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
CurlingZone > Chat Forums > General Curling Chat > Rock Talk > Hi Tech Curling Brooms Banned for Season
1 2 )
In the run up to Christmas Day, 1893, the Aberdeen Peoples's Journal offered a prize of one guinea for the best letter about curling! That's the invitation... (read more)
A quick break for the Memorial Day holiday and we're back with our guest and new USA Curling Womenâs National Team & Juniors Director Jessica Schultz.... (read more)
I am in week 3 of isolation/quarantine/home schooling and getting a little squirrel-y. Personal hygiene has become optional. The kids have watched the entire... (read more)
On today's World Curling Report...we recap Day 1 of the 2019 Canada Cup. (read more)