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| 02-20-15 12:59PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Shuster over anyone = Shuster
McCormick over anyone = McCormick
Brown over Shuster = Shuster
Brown over McCormick or Corbett = Brown
Corbett over Brown = Shuster
Corbett over McCormick = McCormick (except it can't actually happen)
Corbett over Shuster = Shuster
Those are all of the scenarios, as I understand them
thank you for clarifying
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| 02-20-15 01:14PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote:
Originally posted by jhcurl
For Alan, the USOC really could care less about the HP program and process. They have ZERO INPUT. The USOC DOES NOT control the program or the process.
I'm reminded of that great statement: "He who pays the piper calls the tune".
You're telling me with a straight face that the group which writes the entire budget for the HPP doesn't give any input on who's going to be in charge, how they spend the money, or what the objectives are?
Umm...yeah...forgive me for not believing that.
Particularly not when we were told less than a year ago "You WILL restructure how your organization is run, or we might pull governing body status from you".
So...yeah...
And as for the "the HP staff is in charge". The HP staff should be accountable to the Board, the Board should be setting direction, not reverse.
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| 02-20-15 01:16PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by jhcurl
We need a training center in the East, in Illinois, in Blaine, in Denver and on the West Coast. That will make the US better
JH, I think you hit the nail on the head there. More members, OK, but more opportunities to get meaningful coaching and instruction. Building the pipeline. If you have enough numbers (we have the 2nd largest national membership in the world) there are good athletes in there. Borrowing from biology, you can cull excellence from diversity (by that I mean raw numbers of a variety of athletes)--you can't expect to create excellence from a small pool of individuals. More members creates a greater pool diversity, but coaching and instruction, plus experience, is required to cull and develop the excellence from that pool. Everyone who belongs to a curling club has seen this principle in operation at the club level. The biggest difference between U.S. curling and Canadian curling is how readily available instructors/pros are in Canada. And they are really good at what they do! It's why I went to Canada to learn how to curl, and why I stole their curriculum for our club's instructional program.
In the short term, the USCA could probably recruit and train, if necessary, volunteers to provide coaching/instruction at the regional centers for relatively little cost. Free training and a small stipend might be enough to keep volunteers on board and valued. It's a thought...
Curling is a great sport with really nice and competitive people in it. I really hope we can better develop our sport at home, and get more competitive internationally. Our current strategy, if it works, is still only a short-term fix.
Cheers.
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| 02-20-15 01:29PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
I'm reminded of that great statement: "He who pays the piper calls the tune".
You're telling me with a straight face that the group which writes the entire budget for the HPP doesn't give any input on who's going to be in charge, how they spend the money, or what the objectives are?
Umm...yeah...forgive me for not believing that.
Particularly not when we were told less than a year ago "You WILL restructure how your organization is run, or we might pull governing body status from you".
So...yeah...
And as for the "the HP staff is in charge". The HP staff should be accountable to the Board, the Board should be setting direction, not reverse.
I don't want to be an apologist for the USOC, but in the case of USCA governance, they were right on target. I have served on the Executive Board of a national organization of about the same size, scope, and membership as the USCA, and currently serve as President-Elect. I was involved in a reorganization of our governing board a few years ago and it was very similar to the USCA transition. The former USCA board was involved in aspects of the organization (day-to-day business activities) that were unusual for governing boards. (They also had some really interesting circular reporting lines.) The revised board is more in line with the way organizations should be run: that is, the board is exclusively focused on strategic and fiduciary priorities, while the Executive Officer is tasked with running the day-to-day operations of the organization an implementing the strategic plan. The EO serves at the pleasure of the board, is provided with strategic priorities in a collaborative fashion, and is evaluated on a regular basis. This is how most organizations are run, including the one I serve. The challenge for the USCA in this board reorganization is to hire an effective EO so that the board can get used to their new strategic role and try not to meddle in operational affairs. It can be a difficult transition, but the organization will function better because of it. Diversifying the board to include non-curlers will also be a potential benefit, bringing non-curling skills to the table, e.g. marketing, fund-raising, and high-level connections that curlers probably won't have.
Cheers.
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| 02-20-15 01:35PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
Diversification of the board may be a good thing (although one would think that in a sport which skews as middle to upper class as curling, you'd think we could source the connections and skills in house...).
However...abdication of responsibility by the board is not.
"The Director of the High Performance Program determines the rules for Nationals Qualification" is not a sentence that any governing body of any sport should utter.
"The Director of the HP program objected to our decision, and reminded us that under his contract, he gets to make these decisions, and would consider legal action if necessary" is damned near criminal neglect.
Yet, both of these have happened over the past year.
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| 02-20-15 02:34PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
Back on subject...
McCormick over Corbett and Shuster over Brown on a draw to the button means that the current remaining scenarios are:
Shuster over anyone = Shuster
McCormick over Shuster = McCormick
Brown over Shuster = Shuster
Brown's only chance at getting there just vanished...
If McCormick beats Brown at 8PM Eastern tonight, we have an actual, real live, honest to goodness National Championship game, otherwise it's Shuster being fitted for the Red White and Blues
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| 02-20-15 03:45PM |
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westcoveroadie
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2012
Location:
Posts: 28 |
Craig Brown's chances of making the World team not completely extinguished. He still has an outside shot of being named to the team as the new 5th man, should the non-HP team become Team USA.
Last edited by westcoveroadie on 02-20-15 at 04:03PM
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| 02-20-15 04:30PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Back on subject...
McCormick over Corbett and Shuster over Brown on a draw to the button means that the current remaining scenarios are:
Shuster over anyone = Shuster
McCormick over Shuster = McCormick
Brown over Shuster = Shuster
Brown's only chance at getting there just vanished...
If McCormick beats Brown at 8PM Eastern tonight, we have an actual, real live, honest to goodness National Championship game, otherwise it's Shuster being fitted for the Red White and Blues
then lets all just hope that mccormick beats shuster. having a meaningful championships final would be so much better then , what for all intensive purposes would be an exhibition if brown win tonight,.
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| 02-20-15 10:26PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
And Brown wins 4-3 to eliminate McCormick and any actual relevance to the remainder of the 2014-2015 United States Bonspiel that Kinda Sorta had some impact on who goes to worlds, but not really...
Shuster clinches the world's rep slot again, despite the HPP's best efforts. Well done!
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| 02-20-15 10:29PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
Poetic Justice? Victory Lap? Sweet by any name for Team Shuster
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| 02-20-15 10:31PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
I really, really, really hope that Shuster can channel all of the righteous anger he's been working with all season into a strong performance at Worlds.
I think he will. That may be my heart talking over my head, but I want the man to have a medal, he's earned it.
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| 02-20-15 10:46PM |
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nom de broom
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 84 |
quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Shuster clinches the world's rep slot again, despite the HPP's best efforts. Well done!
Shuster did not clinch the spot despite the HPP. He clinched the spot because of his dedication and drive. NO bitching, NO whining, NO moaning about "the spirit of curling" or "fairness" or whatever that at the end of the day doesn't get a W next to your name.
Shuster looked at the situation, figured out what he'd need to do to succeed, and STFU and did it.
nom de broom
__________________
[Original Ray's] nom de broom
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| 02-20-15 10:50PM |
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rbi
Hitting Paint
Registered: May 2014
Location:
Posts: 143 |
> an exhibition
the whole thing was an exhibition long before Brown beat McCormick in the semis. at the point we started giving exemptions to HPP teams and junior teams it ceased being a true national championship.
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| 02-20-15 10:52PM |
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brund
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2014
Location:
Posts: 17 |
Nice job Shuster team!!!!! hp teams had all the advantages and you came out on top. Good luck at the worlds, you are the best we have. Now....... how long will it be before the next rule change?
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| 02-20-15 10:55PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
If we decided to go the way of a 'world team trials' for teams with x OOM points and left nationals open to anyone who won their state title, excluding WTT teams, then we would be complaining because the world trials team went to worlds and "wasn't even our national champion".
Change is hard, give it time 
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| 02-20-15 11:11PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Kind of sad where USA Curling finds itself. Watching tonight's game with a group of curlers -- many cheering FOR Brown but just as many cheering AGAINST McCormick... or, to be fair, cheering AGAINST HPP. Will be interesting to see where this goes next.
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| 02-21-15 08:59AM |
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IMWright
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 206 |
The HPP stacked the deck, altered interpretations of rules, and made-up events to award OOM points to their precious teams, and what happened? Major fail by HPP/USCA.
So, I go back to my statement earlier in the week. I have yet to see the HPP teams being significantly better than the non-funded teams that has justified the silly program. Not a good use of funds when you have non-funded Shuster being significantly better than the HPP teams, and no HPP team making the finals on the women's side (with a HPP team being the world's team based on an event they did well at earlier in the season and getting some points by making the playoffs, not finals, at nationals). So E. Brown and Lank (two very decorated curlers) are not as good representatives at worlds than the HPP teams? Doubtful.
#anotherfailbyUSCA
#cantforgetfailbyHPP
#goshuster
#golankandebrown
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| 02-21-15 09:10AM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
FACE! Way to go!
I talked to one of the team. They were going to bed early because they want this win.
For those who don't know Face, talk to him some time. He's very easy to talk with assuming that you let him do most of the talking (just kidding, but he is very talkative).
Those who do talk to him are always surprised by one thing: His dream is not an Olympic dream. His dream is to personally bring USA curling to the Worlds medal stand. Getting a gold for the USA is his life-mission.
Hopefully I'm not jinxing Landsteiner, but: Brunt's tick shots and Lazar's amazing consistency and great stats from other leads are all very impressive, but ignore the stats and see what Lands brings to the table. Good shooter, great teammate and wonderful sweeper. Face is screaming at him and Tyler is yelling at him (usually the opposite thing that Face is screaming), but Lands calmly sweeps or doesn't sweep the rock to the correct spot. Being "the right side of the inch" begins with Lands. He did it at the Trials and at the Qualifier in Germany...not so much in Sochi. He's really dialed in now.
Ben Tucker
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| 02-21-15 12:18PM |
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Mowgli
Knee-Slider
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 9 |
It'll be interesting to see how the HPP prpgram deals with Shuster, if he's going to replace one of the teams and if they try to sink their claws in and tinker with the team. That would be a shame. Shuster has more than proved that he is better at building and preparing teams than their staff and program. If they cared about continued development of their team they would cut them a check for any spiels they want to attend next year and be there for any support they might need. But that doesn't seem to be the HPP's style, they like to micromanage.
Derek Brown needs to be gone. Tomorrow. Hundreds of thousands of dollars USA curling has spent on this clown traveling the world, and we get a nationals where the finals don't matter, and only 5 teams in the country (men and womens) have a decent shot of going to worlds. There's no reason for him to be involved going forward.
Last edited by Mowgli on 02-21-15 at 12:28PM
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| 02-21-15 12:46PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote:
Originally posted by Mowgli
It'll be interesting to see how the HPP prpgram deals with Shuster, if he's going to replace one of the teams and if they try to sink their claws in and tinker with the team. That would be a shame. Shuster has more than proved that he is better at building and preparing teams than their staff and program.
Please give me some facts to back this up. Shuster has been embarrassingly bad at the world stage, but good on the domestic stage his entire career. This has never changed. To me this shows his inability to be trusted to create a team, and borders on the definition of insanity.
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| 02-21-15 12:58PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Please give me some facts to back this up. Shuster has been embarrassingly bad at the world stage, but good on the domestic stage his entire career. This has never changed. To me this shows his inability to be trusted to create a team, and borders on the definition of insanity.
Shuster's world record is undeniable, but what makes you think that the teams he beats regularly will somehow do better? That is taking Dunning-Kruger to therapeutic levels!
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| 02-21-15 01:45PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Please give me some facts to back this up. Shuster has been embarrassingly bad at the world stage, but good on the domestic stage his entire career. This has never changed. To me this shows his inability to be trusted to create a team, and borders on the definition of insanity.
I'll just leave this here:
He's got an Olymnpic medal (yea, I know, he wasn't the skip, he still has the bronze), he won a Universiade as Skip, 2 time Gold and 2 time bronze at our National Championships, with at least a Silver clinched this year, and he's 3/3 at the USOC Curling team selection meets...
*IF* we had something better, they'd have beaten him at some point along the way...ability is transitive...if you can't beat him at Nationals, the odds on you beating teams that beat him at Worlds or the Olympics is not good.
Does it mean he's a world champ in the making? Probably not...but what it does mean is that none of the other "Golden Boys" in the wings are either.
Face it, he won by the rules set up, he's our guy....he's the BEST WE'VE GOT.
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| 02-21-15 01:57PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
Alan you quoted me, but your answer really didn't do anything to prove me wrong. He has an outstanding domestic history. He does not have any history of success of being in charge of a team on the world stage. And he really hasn't gotten any closer to the world talent level.
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| 02-21-15 02:09PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Please give me some facts to back this up. Shuster has been embarrassingly bad at the world stage, but good on the domestic stage his entire career. This has never changed. To me this shows his inability to be trusted to create a team, and borders on the definition of insanity.
Well, Shuster had as many OOM points as any other US mens team this year but without the benefit of USCA largesse. And apparently our groomed teams were unable to successfully deal with his team or the rest of the field this week.
So how do we figure anyone else in the field is better right now? If you can't win at the US level, how are you competitive at the world level? The last two years of HPP programming has little to show in terms of value added yet. Do we have any benchmarks? (That are useful for gauging world competitive progress?) And are we meeting them? Or are we going by the seat of our pants and our only benchmark is the next Olympics? If we are not meaningfully assessing we have no idea if our programs are working. The US Nationals this year looks somewhere between neutral to a setback for HPP training.
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