Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

I was at the Scotties this year and so missed the TV coverage. And as I'm just waiting right now for the TSN VOD to come on so I can see the Koe v Stoughton match-up.....and I saw the Scotties Page 1 v 2 on Curl Television. I thought what the heck.

In the pre-game chatter they had Chelsea Carey of MB on talking about playing Team Homan. "The style of game they play is almost different from anybody else. It's high risk but it's also high reward. If they're making their shots then you probably don't beat them." Then she laughs...a bit...Quite an admission for one elite skip to make about another team. And one she makes with no problem because she recognizes the obvious. Team Homan is taking the game to another level.

Carey was no slouch this year at the STOH finishing the RR second among skips at 85%. and finishing 9-2. Winning 8 in a row at one point. Which would be very good stats in this year's Brier, and most Scotties. Except of course that Homan was 11-0 at that point and was Moore's Law up on Chelsea in terms of shooting percentage. I.e. +5, at 90% for the week.

As it turns out Carey couldn't have called it better. In the second end Team Homan made a perfect tick shot to start things off. Then they had a series of unusual miscues. In the end MB is lying two, but Homan is 3 and 4. Rachel has the hammer. MB has a rock full eight centreline and another full eight T-line.

The draw is tough. It's first end and the pebble is fresh. There are guards narrowing the port on both turns. Rachel decides to go with the tick double. This way at worst she gives up 1. Instead she makes the sliver on the top rock and sticks her shooter on the second for three. Pretty much game over. This start mirroring what she did to Team MB (JJ) last year.

Why I bring it up during the Brier.

What Linda Moore talked about at the beginning of the telecast was how straight Team Homan throws the rock. They do this by purposely playing with the rock and 'popping' their release - to varying degrees.

It is my guess that this technique would allow them to easily handle the ice we are seeing at this Brier. In fact I think this would give them an advantage that most men's teams would have a hard time overcoming.

For those who started curling in the last ten years I'm here to tell you what it was like in the 'bad old days'.

Ice reading was a skill and an art that made a much greater contribution to the outcome than it does today.

When I started curling 39 years ago a lot of things were different. We played 12 ends. We played with straw brooms and we very often played on very straight ice which including falls.

Back in 'the day' starting the rock was a skill you tried to perfect. Slide a little wide and start it back in. It was very easy to overdo it and crash on the guard. It was equally easy to slide wide and fail to start it enough and so sail very wide. But 'artistry' was at a premium if you wanted to the rock to curl. Then of course there were runs, and falls, and places where the rock 'danced' and places where it 'fall off the edge of the world'. It was a very different time for the game.

A very significant part of the problem was that it was not yet understood that ice doesn't curl, rocks do. Shorty Jenkins was a pioneer of texturing the rocks. I.e. Sandpapering the underneath of the rock to create tiny scratches which increases the amount of curl.

Once this and the FGZ, aka the Howard rule, became a regular part of the game the emphasis was on throwing the rock perfectly pure. I.e. With no bias. No attempt to get it started. Purposely floating the rock was not thought of as an advantage but a mistake.

This is an innovation that Team Homan brings to the game. One that has ye to be fully grasped by our men's teams. And the first time I remember the women being ahead of the curve in terms of the games strategy.

Team Koe for example has been struggling with their up weight runbacks cause no matter how pure they throw it it just won't react like they are used to. Team Homan is used to playing their runbacks and up weight doubles with a bit of negative ice. An advancement in the understanding of the nature of ice and rocks in the modern game. And one that will undoubtedly catch on. Going 25-1 in the national championships of Canada has a tendency to do that.....lol....

This is little talked about even by Russ and Linda who are superb. Yes Linda does mention they throw a straight rock but is ends there. Also never discussed is that there is a women's teacher warrior out there changing the world as we know it.

There is of course an exception - Team Jacobs. And why their runback game has become so potent. For they too 'pop' the release and throw the rock to fall back a bit instead of trying to throw it as pure as possible. This mechanical improvement in upweight accuracy has allowed them to create runback style that is trumping the supremacy of the 'I can draw to the pin' Kevin Martin, Glenn Howard era.

I am of course NOT saying that they got this from Team Homan. Both teams arrived at this independently of each other and thanks to the work/talent of throwers like Marc Kennedy. Who has been feasting on his opponents with this ability for going on a decade now.

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I think Gushue is one of the top curlers in Canada... but it still takes 4 players to win and he has seldom had players as good as other top skips.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dbsdbs
I think Gushue is one of the top curlers in Canada... but it still takes 4 players to win and he has seldom had players as good as other top skips.

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Jeese louise , talk about living in the past.. Id hate to have had a camera on me the last 50 years ... About half my telephone conversations end with the same two words after i hang up from some pain in the arm tenant.. ( btw 90% are great)

Brad has been fun to watch for years and his 3 younguns are a pleasure to watch. ... I could win with those guys !!

I LOVE watching all the teams and even a few players that did something to tic me off are forgiven lol based on their overall on ice performance ... Not many sports are miked , we are lucky to be in huddle so we shouldnt be whining about the fbom or brainfrt....

Im noti in favor of the 4 team provincial qualification thou. Pretty sure thats a backward step, but bringing back the Brier winner is good in my opinion..

I miss howard and martin ... Hmm. How about a 16 team double knockout Brier with the last 3 qualifying Brier winners qualifying ... And throw in a sponsor pick. ... Ferbey was always fun to watch!!!

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Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
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quote:

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Originally posted by JB42
A) It's a team game and while his teams have been good teams, they haven't been great ones.

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Registered: Mar 2012
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quote:

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Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
Koe was actually semi-awful in the Alberta playdowns and Martin was sailing to Kamloops. But something happened in the final. K-Mart got cocky and Koe slithered by him in the finale. Martin even had early control of the game.

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Watching alberta as often as i have..ive come to realize just how annoying nolan and carter are. Neither one of them seem to be able to shut up, they have to be the noisiest front end combo of any team ive sen.

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Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

Savill and Laing are just as chatty, just way funnier.....lol....

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quote:

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Originally posted by nelsosi


There's a key difference between a mid 30s Gushue and the three guys you mention (Stoughton, Martin and Koe). Gushue has had 10 chances at a Brier, by virtue of his province. Stoughton had to battle out of Manitoba, and actually won the Brier in only his 2nd appearance. Martin and Koe, of course had to battle out of Alberta against other elite rinks just to make it to the Brier. Koe won on his first trip to the Brier. Martin also won on his first trip to the Brier, and then again on his 5th, but had top 3 finishes on all 3 of his appearances in between.

My point is, if Gushue really was 'that good', why does he have only one 2nd and one 3rd place finish to show for 10 Brier appearances?

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quote:

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Originally posted by JB42
Savill and Laing are just as chatty, just way funnier.....lol....

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Tought start for Manitoba. It just doesnt seem like they are dialed in this week

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Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

Just finished watching the first half of the Page 1 v 2 Scotties. I was there at the Scotties, and one of the things about attending is you spend a lot time chatting. And you don't get the commentary or the stats so you don't have as detailed an understanding of what's going on.

After five I knew Rachel was playing amazing. She made a tick double for three. Made an across the house double to go from giving up a two to forcing a one. I also knew that Team Manitoba was making a lot of shots but were still down one without. What I didn't realize is how many they were making.

Team Manitoba percentage after five was 94%. Chelsea was at a 100%. Team Ontario on the other hand was at 93%. And both teams were making shots that were flat out hard. Women's curling has never been closer to being equal to men's curling.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens over the next few years as the rest of the women's teams start to match Team Homan's weapons, and inevitably start catching up.

Who will be the first to start playing the lead tick shot every time they have hammer? I can't see why Jones wouldn't do it with McEwen, after all there ain't anything Dawn can't make.

Last edited by JB42 on 03-04-14 at 12:48PM

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Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:

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Originally posted by JB42

This is an innovation that Team Homan brings to the game. One that has ye to be fully grasped by our men's teams. And the first time I remember the women being ahead of the curve in terms of the games strategy.

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I was in attendance in MOntreal as well, so I didn't see much on TV. But my impression being in the arena was that when Homan was on the ice, the game felt like a foregone conclusion. It almost looked like everyone else was playing for 2nd place.

To use an analogy from other sports, outside of Jones, is there any rink in the country that people feel could compete with Homan in a best-of-7 series?

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If there's an 'innovation' with Homan, I would say it is that they are playing in the women's game with a style and aggression that is more common in the men's game.

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But it is an innovation my fine feathered friend and I'll to do my best to explain why. By the by I started curling in 1974. So I've seen a radical difference in how stones behave and how the game is played. I doubt for example Rachel has ever had to play on ice that started at 19-20 seconds and never got over 23. Or ice where different draw paths had 3 seconds difference in weight. Or where draws curled maybe 2 feet.

Back in the Ryan Express days the ice and what we knew about rocks was very different from today's conditions. Often there was max 3 feet curl. The rocks would sometimes even fall in places. And different paths differed more radically than they do today. Some rocks would even fall a bit, start to curl, straighten, seem like they were going to curl and then wouldn't. Here in Ontario the name for such rock was 'Dancers'. They look they wanted to go, and just never did. Skipping hurt the head a lot more in those days:-)

So rocks that were three quarters buried were in the words of Mike Harris, "lost". Even ones that were only buried a sliver, what is called today "edge on edge" were really good because lesser skilled players would often flash them on the wide side.

This went on for years. Decades really. The result of a lifetime of this kind of experience with the game led the best, and the coaching and instruction to the kind of release that would curl the maximum predictable amount. What we call today a "soft release". This is what everyone aspired to. No bias. No outward motion especially. If you were going to play with it at all you started it a little. In Ontario Paul Savage was famous for this shot. Aka. Feathering it in a little.

All the elite players were throwing it this way. Curling instruction was teaching this is as 'the' way to throw the rock. A pure release was the holy grail of curling. It was both orthodoxy and doctrine as well as demonstrably being the best way to win.

You still see this in Glenn's release. One of the ways that he gets caught occasionally on the modern ice with textured rocks.

When Kevin has missed the playoffs at the Brier, and when Team Martin had their dry spell recently at the Slams and the Brier. Both times the biggest problem was that Kevin was releasing the rock on his big weight run backs in such a way that they were curling a bit. Aka. Tipping it a bit. Causing his percentage of these shots to drop quite a bit.

Team Homan on the other hand have always played on the modern ice with textured rocks. They have always played with 4 feet or more of curl. They have learned, especially on arena ice, that the mistake to avoid is under rotation and starting the rock.

And as I wrote in another post of course there are others, most notably Marc Kennedy and John Morris, who have perfected the same understanding. Developing a release that has made them deadly on run backs. So of course I know and agree that Team Homan did not invent this technique.

Where their innovation lies is they have taken this empirically verified experience to a whole other level. They purposely play with their release. Giving more and less of a "pop" to the rock. They talk among themselves as to how much they are going to give, and it's part of the shot called and the ice given.

At the Scotties they played quite a number of negative ice up weight hits and runbacks. A couple of times Emma even mistook which turn Rachel was throwing because of where the broom was. In one end in the Page 1 game Rachel had to call down that she was throwing the out-turn. The camera happened to catch Chelsea in the background and we could see her chuckling. Not in a derisive way, just in recognition. Cause she knows this is one of the ways Team Homan differs from everyone else in curling. And even they are getting use to the extent of it.

We have seen at this Brier Stoughton, and Koe and Morris having problems with how straight the ice is. With where to put the broom. As a result they are making a lower percentage on run backs up and down the line up.

I contend that Team Homan would not be having that particular problem with this ice. They'd just ice it negative, pop it a little less and make a lot of shots. Remember they curled 90% as a team for the week at the Scotties on arena ice, and while taking on a lot of run backs.

That, to my mind at least, is how they have innovated this particular element of the game. Not so much curling as straightening....lol.....

Last edited by JB42 on 03-04-14 at 02:46PM

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Registered: Mar 2005
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JB42,
Need I remind you that Homan struggled mightily at the Olympic trials not too many months ago. This "new" way of icing is neither new nor improved. Good teams some times struggle to get in the zone.

The early struggles at the brier are actually not all that uncommon, but were more noticeable because the ice was more tricky in the first few draws. Since then the teams have in fact adjusted as have the ice makers.

I learned to "pop" the rock just the right amount as a junior and this was further enforced by a skip I played with in mens ... who learned it during his time playing with Kevin Martin. So yes it does go back aways. I'm speculating here, but I'm guessing this way of throwing was brought to team Homan by their coach Earl Morris.

What your seeing from Homan's team is not new, it's just the fact that they're REALLY REALLY good at it that makes it seem novel. It's also the fact that very few of the other women's teams have remotely close to the same hitting ability that makes it stand out. By comparison almost all of the top men's teams do it so it's almost taken for granted that several runbacks are going to be made each end.

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What a cwazy game, I'm lovin the drama this Brier is offering

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Didn't get a chance to see the EE, Jeff was curling in the 90's so went back to work ... what did he miss in the EE for the win?

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If Rachel was competing at this years Brier, she wouldn't even have to throw her last rock.

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He had a rock top 4, QC had 2 back 4 and jeff played the run instead of the draw and missed. Surprised he played the run instead of a draw with backing...

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I'm a touch surprised Team BC and John "The Parachute" Morris are hanging in there. They've got to realize most of BC, especially in the men's curling community, want to see them soil their bedsheets. Nothing against the boys but they're harboring a guy who is clearly in violation of his exemption to play in the province.

On the other hand; Jim, Ty and Rick look to be playing well and they do have one of the most decorated curlers in our generation calling the game. Unfortunately I still can't get behind it. John Morris being allowed to play in BC past the trials is a joke.

CurlBC is so desperate to have a contender and not face relegation that they'd say and do anything to keep him in, inspite of the uproar and response from the curling community. I wonder if the standings get tight at the end of the week, is the Morris situation going to blow up with some of the teams that are on the bubble? I know they're there to curl and nothing else but when the rules are clearly being broken, at what point is someone going to say something and force some accountability on someone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
If Rachel was competing at this years Brier, she wouldn't even have to throw her last rock.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dwenzek
He had a rock top 4, QC had 2 back 4 and jeff played the run instead of the draw and missed. Surprised he played the run instead of a draw with backing...

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Deucey,

Let me try this one last way and if you're still not convinced, heck we'll just agree to disagree.

I'm a decent thrower of the rock. And, obviously, a tad obsessed with the game. So I, like you, over ten years ago noticed the trend, the change in rocks and ice, and so started experimenting with popping my release.

So let me repeat. I am not ascribing this to Team Homan.

Where they are breaking new ground can perhaps be explained better by way of contrast.

Russ and Glenn were always considered to be among the purest throwers of the rock in the game. Their mechanics universally admired.

They had a little bit of success too winning a couple of Brier's and World Championships. When Russ moved on to the east coast he briefly hooked up with Gushue and continued his winning ways picking up a gold medal. Gushue throwing last rock, Russ skipping.

So Russ had a really good view of Brad's rocks coming at him. And how they differed from Glenn's. And what he noticed of course is that Brad 'pops' it, especially on his out-turn. This of course was long before Team Homan's rise.

To this day Russ talks on air about this tendency with Brad's throws. What he also does is put it in the light of a problem to be managed. NOT a weapon to be used. He invariably says something along the lines of, "But as long as you throw it the same way every time." As in it may not be perfect but it's consistent.

Team Homan by contrast views this as the best way to throw the rock. The new ideal, the new perfect. Not only that they are learning to play with greater and lesser degrees of it and calling for and icing for greater and lesser degrees of it.

I can't name a single other team, men's or women's that does the same. To my mind that is an innovation.

In any case. Enuff said by me on this subject.

Last edited by JB42 on 03-04-14 at 04:07PM

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