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| 10-29-15 04:18PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
I see from the photos on the GSOC Masters web site that some teams are using the EQ+ brushes as well as teams that are using the IcePad. These two are of the same ilk: artificially textured brushing surfaces with similar fused waffle-patterns. Just sayin'...
Cheers.
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| 10-29-15 05:40PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
Doesn't matter what they're using. All synthetics are totally acceptable under the current rules.
To add, a question for rocdoc and ngm who made two great posts about testing; in order to judge the impact of the various synthetics would you not have to first acquire baseline data with hair brushes?
If there's a question that technique is playing a factor, this would seem the logical place to start to provide comparison data.
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Last edited by jamcan on 10-29-15 at 10:06PM
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| 10-30-15 02:25PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
New WCF Communication On The Issue:
http://www.worldcurling.org/wcf-com...tion-broomheads
At least it sounds like they're moving forward and doing something.
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| 10-30-15 03:35PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Doesn't matter what they're using. All synthetics are totally acceptable under the current rules.
To add, a question for rocdoc and ngm who made two great posts about testing; in order to judge the impact of the various synthetics would you not have to first acquire baseline data with hair brushes?
If there's a question that technique is playing a factor, this would seem the logical place to start to provide comparison data.
Deltas will have to be measured against acceptable equipment, including other synthetic brushing materials. It's the quickest way to get useful data.
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| 10-30-15 03:53PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
they will also have to design an easy to use tester so that clubs can easily test brooms in question. After all, if I turn up with my old hogs hair brush, I would want to know if it was legal.
I imagine something like a sweeping machine that puts a consistent amount of pressure and sweeps at the same intensity for a set interval on a clear sheet of thin plastic approximately the hardness of ice. It would have temp sensors to determine friction heat generated is within the limit, and light sensors to determine if the scratching on the sheet is within the scratching limit. All of this could plug in and be analysed through software on a laptop via USB and provide instant results.
At the end of the test the test sheet would be certified and could be given out to the curler who would have to present it at any bonspiels they attend. Maybe they could mark the broom itself to prevent any broom swapping.
(I'm thinking I could mock up a prototype using a paint shaker, weights off a dumbell, and an old overhead projector. Just need some brooms to test with  )
Last edited by Flat Hat on 10-30-15 at 03:58PM
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| 10-30-15 03:59PM |
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IceMelter
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2009
Location:
Posts: 25 |
quote:
Originally posted by Phil_D
Ulsrud just demanded that Carruthers switch over to hair in their game.
I actually like this idea.
Banning all synthetic materials might be the only fair thing to do moving forward.
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| 10-30-15 04:10PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote:
Originally posted by IceMelter
I actually like this idea.
Banning all synthetic materials might be the only fair thing to do moving forward.
In the interim it's actually the easiest way to keep things level.
I mean, everyone is in agreement that the "blackhead" should not be used (and it isn't being used), but there is a lot of back-and-forth about the IcePad. He-said/she-said with a lot of anecdotal "evidence" and what not but nothing that has been conclusively proven at this point.
If there is a de-facto ban on a product that has been approved previously (at least according to Hardline), than no synthetic products should be used until this is sorted out.
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| 10-30-15 04:16PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote:
Originally posted by Justintwiss
I for one would like to see the rules enforced about sweeping that seems to get over looked. No more snow plowing rocks, no more crazy corner sweeping or anything. If the sweepers on a team cant be good enough to drag stones then maybe hit the gym boys and put the time and work into bettering yourself.
Throw the right weight on the right line and have 2 sweepers that can carry a rock and judge weight. Not 1 sweeper dancing around the rock corner sweeping one side to hold it then jumping to the next side to bury it around a guard. Then snow plow it like crazy or sweep to dump junk infront of the rock.
Just like putting in golf. You read a green much like you read a sheet of ice. Combo of the right speed on the right line and make the putt or shot. Not hit the ball 8 inches off line and have some crazy putter that make the ball do tricks on the green or brooms that can make a rock dance.
Bingo.
It's been brought up already, but much of this issue could very well be due to sweeping technique versus purely brush head material. The heads are a factor for sure, but not as much as how they're used.
__________________
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| 10-30-15 05:11PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote:
Originally posted by Flat Hat
they will also have to design an easy to use tester so that clubs can easily test brooms in question. After all, if I turn up with my old hogs hair brush, I would want to know if it was legal.
I imagine something like a sweeping machine that puts a consistent amount of pressure and sweeps at the same intensity for a set interval on a clear sheet of thin plastic approximately the hardness of ice. It would have temp sensors to determine friction heat generated is within the limit, and light sensors to determine if the scratching on the sheet is within the scratching limit. All of this could plug in and be analysed through software on a laptop via USB and provide instant results.
At the end of the test the test sheet would be certified and could be given out to the curler who would have to present it at any bonspiels they attend. Maybe they could mark the broom itself to prevent any broom swapping.
(I'm thinking I could mock up a prototype using a paint shaker, weights off a dumbell, and an old overhead projector. Just need some brooms to test with )
Marking brooms as legal may not be that farfetched. With the introduction of super bats in competitive slow pitch softball some tournaments and leagues had all bats approved and labeled with a sticker as "legal" for that specific competition.
I also agree with the sweeping technique comments. I can guarantee those 60 year old guys on our Wednesday league with their Icepads weren't backing any stones up 4 feet. They just like them because they are light and they can sweep without tiring out as quick.
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| 10-30-15 05:45PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
so the agreement basically is if people wont use a broomhead that has been readily available on the open market for years other people will agree not to use a broomhead that has never been sold, not on the open market and specially made to exaggerated specifications?
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| 10-30-15 06:09PM |
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JB42
Drawmaster
Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621 |
It is my understanding that the fabric that the HL sponsored teams were using was not the same as was available to the general public.
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| 10-30-15 06:15PM |
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668 |
quote:
Originally posted by JB42
It is my understanding that the fabric that the HL sponsored teams were using was not the same as was available to the general public.
Can't let the schlumpies sweep too well on Friday night mixed!
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| 10-30-15 08:11PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by JB42
It is my understanding that the fabric that the HL sponsored teams were using was not the same as was available to the general public.
Unless you've got something to back that statement up I'm calling bull.
If such was the case it would have mentioned well before now.
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| 10-30-15 08:35PM |
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JB42
Drawmaster
Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621 |
Jamcan I will ask the person who told me. I won't however see him for a couple of weeks as we only meet on men's curling night and we have the bye next week. Best I can do I'm afraid.
Another player on his team has a daughter who went to junior nationals last year. He was regaling us with tales of the glaring effects he has witnessed by the HL broom at the many spiels where he has been coach or spectator.
These stories might indicate that the fabric being sold to the gen pop is the same as that being sold to elite players. It is not however proof of that. Either way though it is another knock against the'don't worry be happy' crowd. As is to my mind the fact that Team Gushue and other HL teams are still using the one person sweeping technique as well as switching sides during the shot. Which is of course their effort to steer the rock. I.e. Hold it past the guard and then get it to curl after the guard. Not empirical proof of course but highly suggestive nonetheless.
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| 10-30-15 08:42PM |
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JB42
Drawmaster
Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621 |
That is to say. The odds of a Team like Gushue being willing to fly in the face of a sweeping tradition over a century old without having repeatedly witnessed the effect of turning tradition on its head are vanishingly small.
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| 10-30-15 10:20PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
so the agreement basically is if people wont use a broomhead that has been readily available on the open market for years other people will agree not to use a broomhead that has never been sold, not on the open market and specially made to exaggerated specifications?
Seems like a reasonable interpretation to me! I thought the owner of HL said flat out the fabric was the same on any broom, that there were no new fabrics only given to top teams. It may have been mentioned on the curling show podcast a week or so ago.
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| 10-30-15 10:24PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
Marking brooms as legal may not be that farfetched. With the introduction of super bats in competitive slow pitch softball some tournaments and leagues had all bats approved and labeled with a sticker as "legal" for that specific competition.
I also agree with the sweeping technique comments. I can guarantee those 60 year old guys on our Wednesday league with their Icepads weren't backing any stones up 4 feet. They just like them because they are light and they can sweep without tiring out as quick.
I was serious about the tester and certifying brooms beyond just approving the fabric, since apparently people will put anything on their broom heads to 'prove a point'. I wasn't so serious about the 'mock up' comment at the end.
If we go back to corn brooms, can we still soak them in the toilet to get the straws to stay in and give that extra whack sound?
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| 10-30-15 11:22PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by JB42
Jamcan I will ask the person who told me. I won't however see him for a couple of weeks as we only meet on men's curling night and we have the bye next week. Best I can do I'm afraid.
Another player on his team has a daughter who went to junior nationals last year. He was regaling us with tales of the glaring effects he has witnessed by the HL broom at the many spiels where he has been coach or spectator.
These stories might indicate that the fabric being sold to the gen pop is the same as that being sold to elite players. It is not however proof of that. Either way though it is another knock against the'don't worry be happy' crowd. As is to my mind the fact that Team Gushue and other HL teams are still using the one person sweeping technique as well as switching sides during the shot. Which is of course their effort to steer the rock. I.e. Hold it past the guard and then get it to curl after the guard. Not empirical proof of course but highly suggestive nonetheless.
JB, teams have been 'switching sides' for years. We always have the person sweeping against the curl starting each shot closest to the stone to hold it straight. If it's a draw and we need finish once we're clear of a guard we switch up so the person with the curl sweeps tight to the stone and sometimes on their own in an effort to help the stone bury at the end. This really isn't anything new - I've got my fun league team doing it as well.
If all gushue is doing is a variation on what others do I find it hard to find anything wrong with it provided it's within the spirit and intent of the existing rules.
A good statement from the WCF though. In a nutshell confirming they'll begin proper testing but take no action unless someone does something drastically outside the rules.
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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Last edited by jamcan on 10-30-15 at 11:24PM
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| 10-31-15 12:35AM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
A good statement from the WCF though. In a nutshell confirming they'll begin proper testing but take no action unless someone does something drastically outside the rules.
Exactly.
__________________
Recreational curler & resident armchair curler at Windy City Curling Club.
Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.
http://www.nerdcurl.com
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| 10-31-15 12:54AM |
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aluchko
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 25 |
quote:
Originally posted by JB42
Another player on his team has a daughter who went to junior nationals last year. He was regaling us with tales of the glaring effects he has witnessed by the HL broom at the many spiels where he has been coach or spectator.
These stories might indicate that the fabric being sold to the gen pop is the same as that being sold to elite players. It is not however proof of that.
I find that really unconvincing as evidence of them having different brooms. Even if he has seen 'glaring effects' all it means is that the brooms are especially effective in the hands of elite sweepers. In particular compared to club sweepers as I'm honestly not convinced a lot of club sweepers are doing anything at all, I've seen people not even intersecting the path of the rock, hell I'm certain I've seen elite curlers on TV entirely missing the path of the rock.
quote:
Originally posted by JB42
Either way though it is another knock against the'don't worry be happy' crowd. As is to my mind the fact that Team Gushue and other HL teams are still using the one person sweeping technique as well as switching sides during the shot. Which is of course their effort to steer the rock. I.e. Hold it past the guard and then get it to curl after the guard. Not empirical proof of course but highly suggestive nonetheless. [/B]
If I recall switching sides was popularized during Ferby's run, I'd be shocked if every elite team wasn't doing it now.
As for the single sweeper to steer the rock I think that's just the natural progression of sweeping technique. Especially with the expanded rules on sweeping technique I don't see why you couldn't do it with any broom. The real question is if the newest generation of brooms are so effective that it significantly nullifies the throwing skill.
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| 10-31-15 01:01AM |
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aluchko
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 25 |
quote:
Originally posted by Phil_D
New WCF Communication On The Issue:
http://www.worldcurling.org/wcf-com...tion-broomheads
At least it sounds like they're moving forward and doing something.
Hmm, that actually makes me a bit nervous:
This is a very complex subject and there are many competitive and commercial issues to balance. The WCF is taking the time necessary to ensure sound, informed decisions are taken and we believe it is better to do this “right” than to do it fast.
...
It is our expectation that the WCF will have taken a position on allowable brush head technology prior to the start of the Pacific-Asia Curling Championships in Almaty, Kazakhstan on 8 November 2015 and further information will be forthcoming in the days ahead.
November 8th doesn't sounds like a lot of time to formulate, organize, and perform a proper study of all the different brooms. I'm hoping the position is re-enforcing that all brooms currently on the market are legal and they'll come up with a proper standard for next season.
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| 10-31-15 09:10AM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
Hardline brushes used by teams in the past were off the shelf. No special fabric for the elite teams. This is 100% confirmed by Hardline directly. Lots of rumours about this though.
At this point though, the Hardline teams are testing out different fabric options to get the waterproof option back into play as the inverted icePad is not waterproof and wears down quickly especially in arena conditions.
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| 10-31-15 10:36AM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote:
Originally posted by fresca
so the broom is heating the ice into water ?
pretty sure melting the ice pebble would flatten the surface ..
ALL brooms testing should make sure a good 200 pound sweeper cannot effectively flatten or change the surface .. my opinion - this will not be easy to regulate
some good articles in the curling news btw
the mens quarter finals from truro are on cbc at 11 am winnipeg time
happy halloween
Hardline Brushes don't seem to heat the ice as well as competitive brushes, which seems to be what drags rocks further. The brushes instead are one of the most effective at creating micro-scratches on the ice which help the rocks curl. These scratches don't damage the ice in the same way heat will flatten pebble, but instead changes the reaction rocks will get off the pebble. And it seems to go away very quickly, at worst affecting a couple of shots in the same path.
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| 10-31-15 07:39PM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
Fresca,
You saw some back eight shots run straight and other being swept from the top of the house for two feet of curl.
Go look outside tonight. You will see some ghosts and zombies in front of your house. Don't worry. You are not having hallucinations once again. It's Halloween.
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| 11-01-15 03:09AM |
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jcullen
Hitting Paint
Registered: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 170 |
quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
Hardline brushes used by teams in the past were off the shelf. No special fabric for the elite teams. This is 100% confirmed by Hardline directly. Lots of rumours about this though.
At this point though, the Hardline teams are testing out different fabric options to get the waterproof option back into play as the inverted icePad is not waterproof and wears down quickly especially in arena conditions.
We've been sponsored by Hardline for 3 years and while we may not have the cache or name that other teams using the product have, we finished 2nd in BC last season and are currently in the top 20 in points this season.
I can assure you we've only ever used off-the-shelf icePads. I'm good buddies with many of the top rinks that are also HL teams(McEwen, Carruthers, etc.) and can tell you the situation is the same for them also.
Getting pretty tired of the whole "elite HL teams are using different pads" thing, which also seems to be a direct effect of BalancePlus and other companies actually doing that.
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