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owlhooter
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2012
Location:
Posts: 19

1. The people who organize an event, and the people who play the event, love the page playoff. The Olympic format results in 4 games, page results in 6 games. Two more games = more revenue. Should be have a format just for organizers/TV? Maybe not, but people aren't exactly lining up to hold these events.

2. This game is different. Anyone can beat anyone on a given day. It is less likely that a bad team beats a good team now, but it wasn't thus 10 years ago. I can't hit a serve even remotely close to Federer, or skate even remotely as well as any NHLer, hit a drive like Day, but I can throw it almost as hard as Koe. And I can draw the button like him. Not all the time, but I can do it.

Curling isn't like other games. You might disagree with that. I'll just say this: I've beaten World Champions. There are very few sports where someone like me can say that.

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Old Post 04-10-16 01:39PM
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Prawnpuller
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 45

As a final comment to this thread you seem passionate about the old playoff system which is fine. a lot of us are just as passionate about the page system and here's the kicker.......I would bet my left testy that if you polled the top 100 teams (men/woman)in the world that they would overwhelmingly vote for the page system.....I rest my case while I heal up LOL😍😀😀😂😂





Two thing can happen....One is bad

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Old Post 04-10-16 01:53PM
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melnycm
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 4

My last comment

Harvey, You made a good point about the 2 extra games with the Page format. It was something I also thought about too because organizers are always looking for more revenue as you correctly said too. This is probably the best reason for the Page.
From a pure tournament perspective tho, I can't think of any other sport where the playoff format gives 2 teams two chances to win a world or major championship and 2 others only one chance? When u look at Rnd Robin results and the #2 seed's record is only a gm or two better than the 3 seed for example, yet that alone will reward the 2 seed with an extra chance to win the tournament? How is this fair? I guess I am passionate about this because to me this is a double standard in the playoff format - plain and simple. I guess I remain befuddled by this but that's my challenge. I'm just glad I'm not a curling tournament player because it would drive me crazy (or not perhaps) depending on what seed we finish? Cheers all.

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Old Post 04-10-16 08:29PM
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guido
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 851

If you want the most fair way??? If a team goes through round robin undefeated they should automatically win the event.

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Old Post 10-10-16 08:12PM
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ngm
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 271

These are some considerations in designing a curling event:

1. You want the best team to win.
2. You want to have a predictable schedule for the players.
3. You want to have a predictable schedule for the live spectators (if applicable).
4. You want to have a predictable schedule for television viewers (if applicable).
5. You want as many games as possible to be meaningful and interesting.

Here are some formats and their pros and cons:

A. Pure double/triple knockout. Possibly the best at assuring item 1. Satisfies 5. perfectly. Terrible for 2, 3, and 4. Many single game draws needed at end of event.

B. Modified double/triple knockout leading to "qualifiers" and single elimination playoffs. OK for 1., in that the best teams make the playoffs, but then a crapshoot. Good for 5. Not so great (but better than A) for 2, 3, 4. Efficient for cashspiels.

C. Pure round robin with tie break for champion. Very good for 1. - rivaling A. Very good for 2, 3, and 4. But utterly abysmal for 5. The entire final round or even two could be meaningless for all. There is no "championship" game, necessarily. Time consuming.

D. Round robin with playoffs - Brier original (2 v. 3 then winner v. 1). OK for 1 - the best teams are in the playoffs but then a bit of a crapshoot. Fine for 2,3,4. Better with 5 than pure round robin. At least a few of the final rounds can be meaningful Time consuming.

E. Round robin with playoffs - World version 1 (1 v. 4, 2 v. 3, then a final) Same as D. but very risky for 1 seed. An extra team in the playoffs improves item 5.

F. Round robin with playoffs - almost double knockout version, a.k.a. "Page" system. Pretty good for 1. Good for 2, 3, 4. Better than C and D for 5 (more playoff teams.) Main criticism is that perhaps round robin winner not rewarded "enough".

All the systems really do have their pros and cons. Some people will be miserable no matter what - because they are miserable people. Not because of the particulars of any tournament organization.

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Old Post 10-11-16 04:08PM
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ott-am
Swing Artist

Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 338

quote:
Originally posted by ngm
These are some considerations in designing a curling event:

1. You want the best team to win.
2. You want to have a predictable schedule for the players.
3. You want to have a predictable schedule for the live spectators (if applicable).
4. You want to have a predictable schedule for television viewers (if applicable).
5. You want as many games as possible to be meaningful and interesting.

Here are some formats and their pros and cons:

A. Pure double/triple knockout. Possibly the best at assuring item 1. Satisfies 5. perfectly. Terrible for 2, 3, and 4. Many single game draws needed at end of event.

B. Modified double/triple knockout leading to "qualifiers" and single elimination playoffs. OK for 1., in that the best teams make the playoffs, but then a crapshoot. Good for 5. Not so great (but better than A) for 2, 3, 4. Efficient for cashspiels.

C. Pure round robin with tie break for champion. Very good for 1. - rivaling A. Very good for 2, 3, and 4. But utterly abysmal for 5. The entire final round or even two could be meaningless for all. There is no "championship" game, necessarily. Time consuming.

D. Round robin with playoffs - Brier original (2 v. 3 then winner v. 1). OK for 1 - the best teams are in the playoffs but then a bit of a crapshoot. Fine for 2,3,4. Better with 5 than pure round robin. At least a few of the final rounds can be meaningful Time consuming.

E. Round robin with playoffs - World version 1 (1 v. 4, 2 v. 3, then a final) Same as D. but very risky for 1 seed. An extra team in the playoffs improves item 5.

F. Round robin with playoffs - almost double knockout version, a.k.a. "Page" system. Pretty good for 1. Good for 2, 3, 4. Better than C and D for 5 (more playoff teams.) Main criticism is that perhaps round robin winner not rewarded "enough".

All the systems really do have their pros and cons. Some people will be miserable no matter what - because they are miserable people. Not because of the particulars of any tournament organization.



My favourite is the pure TKO, #1. Not for a Brier, but for a provincial. I agree it is best for 1 and 5. But I don't think it is terrible for 2,3,4, just a bit less predictable, but doable. As for the players, it is often "if you win or lose you play at a certain time, but you might be the A or B, B or C, or C or out". So, that is easy for the players. As for the fans,I don't think it is hard to figure out that winning teams will be in the three finals, sometimes the same two teams. Just like tennis, fans know that if Novak wins, he plays tomorrow, if he loses, he does not. It is true if you have a favourite team that is having a bad week, you better get out to see them early, because they might only have three games. Many provincials are not televised, so the schedule for the final on TV is not an issue as the final could be one of three times. But that is no different from NHL, NBA or the World Series final, where the last game could be at one of four times.

As I said, this is not for the Brier, but I think a pure TKO can be a good provincial draw

__________________
Art M

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Old Post 10-11-16 04:30PM
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HotRocks
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 960

Thumbs up endless possibilities

quote:
Originally posted by ngm
All the systems really do have their pros and cons.
Some people will be miserable no matter what - because they are miserable people.
Not because of the particulars of any tournament organization.



nice post

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Old Post 10-11-16 05:12PM
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist

Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 217

ClEAR cut winner of the round robin should get a bye to the final. The page system is clearly set up for TV/event revenue, it's as simple as that. You can play the old shell game with this subject as much as you like, but that's the bottom line. The page system was designed for pool play. Why is the clear cut winner of the round robin out on the ice playing the second place team, in a preliminary? That's my $0.02

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Old Post 10-13-16 08:49PM
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HotRocks
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 960

Smile ^^^...BUT.... here's mine..

Curlers are playing for the rewards....why else play?

With the Page we get to see the Top 4 teams( usually)
several times.. see the best..
Every Team now accepts they will have their share of losses

Curling is becoming HUGE money and rewards.. enhanced Sponsors

Its a Business.. not all about who makes the shortest route to a Title..

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Old Post 10-13-16 09:28PM
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BurnedStone
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 19

THis is off topic but why is silvana not a factor in the swis euro playdowns & why are there only 2 teams competiting?

__________________
Never underestimate Jennifer Jones!

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Old Post 10-13-16 09:32PM
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist

Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 217

Re: ^^^...BUT.... here's mine..

quote:
Originally posted by HotRocks
Curlers are playing for the rewards....why else play?

With the Page we get to see the Top 4 teams( usually)
several times.. see the best..
Every Team now accepts they will have their share of losses

Curling is becoming HUGE money and rewards.. enhanced Sponsors

Its a Business.. not all about who makes the shortest route to a Title..




Well I'll use an analogy then. A team goes (10-0) through the round robin. Instead of a bye, they go back out on the ice and lose the 1-2 page game in an extra end, to the 2nd place team (7-3). They now play the 4th place team (say 6-4) who just beat the third place team (6-4). They lose that game as well in an extra end, and they are out of the competition having lost only 2 games to teams with worse records. Long and the short of it, and in my view, the first place team after the round robin should be fairly rewarded.
Just like the pre-page playoff, Briers and Provincials, when only 3 teams made the playoffs.

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Old Post 10-13-16 09:46PM
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KiwiCurl
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Oct 2016
Location: Auckland
Posts: 13

Here's a different view to consider - is the champion of the FIFA World Cup any less a world champion because they didn't play against every other team in the tournament?

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Old Post 10-13-16 09:59PM
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Marco2010
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 81

FIFA World Cup Soccer and the NFL playoffs/Super Bowl are the biggest sporting events in the world by far and both are single knockout. Even people who don't know much about soccer or NFL football watch the EVENT.

It's a shame that the Brier and the TOH are going in the other direction with pools and weak teams that qualify with little or no playdowns

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Old Post 10-13-16 10:48PM
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KiwiCurl
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Oct 2016
Location: Auckland
Posts: 13

Well the FIFA World Cup does have a group phase first to get to 16 teams, and straight knockout from there.

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Old Post 10-14-16 01:05AM
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Clappy
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2017
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 34

Bronze Medal game

I'm totally in favor of the Page Playoff format. But, I do think the bronze medal game could be modified. In advance, I don't think these changes will be made due to TV and scheduling, but I think it's the most fair.

If the loser of the semi's has a win and a loss...meaning they came from the the winner of the 3/4 game...they get bronze. If the loser has a 2 losses, how should they be awarded the bronze? They should have to play the loser of the 3/4 game which only has 1 loss.

My two cents.

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Old Post 02-24-17 12:27PM
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Yankee
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Apr 2007
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 28

Page is the Best Alternative

Ask all the competitors. Over 95% of them will choose the page format over a single elimination seeded 4 team playoff after a round robin.

As a competitor, why in the world would you want to go 9-0 in a 10-team round robin and then have to play a single elimination game against a 4th seeded team who could have a record of 5-4? That makes no sense for curling. The #1 seed works their butt off all week to go undefeated only to be ‘rewarded’ by being put in the same position as a team that lost 4 times. That is not acceptable.

The page playoff properly rewards the top 2 seeds and gives them a second chance in the playoffs. (Frankly, I believe if the top team in round robin goes undefeated or has 2 or more wins than the next competitor, they should go right to the final…. But I realize that is not a solution for TV/Olympics).

I do agree the Bronze game in the page format is stupid.

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Old Post 02-24-17 06:31PM
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 43

quote:
Originally posted by Marco2010
FIFA World Cup Soccer and the NFL playoffs/Super Bowl are the biggest sporting events in the world by far and both are single knockout. Even people who don't know much about soccer or NFL football watch the EVENT.

It's a shame that the Brier and the TOH are going in the other direction with pools and weak teams that qualify with little or no playdowns



The NFL also awards bye, so the top 4 regular season (a.k.a. round robin) teams are rewarded.

The World Cup is only a 3 game (soon to be 2 game) round robin, which is completely different from playing 11 games.

These are both poor examples to prove your point.

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Old Post 02-25-17 09:31AM
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Frozencanuck
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 61

Page playoff

Ah, the annual argument. It has been stated many times that curling is the only major sport that uses this system (is it them or is it us) what I find most interesting is that more and more curling bodies are turning away from page. The most telling, being the world curling tour, which is run for, and by, curlers. Many provincial playoffs no longer use the system. No legitimate playoff system allows a "mulligan" it may be great for the loser of 1vs 2, but how does the winner feel knowing that they may have to beat the same team again!

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Old Post 02-25-17 11:45AM
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rick8end
Hitting Paint

Registered: Nov 2014
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 199

Re: Re: ^^^...BUT.... here's mine..

quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS



Well I'll use an analogy then. A team goes (10-0) through the round robin. Instead of a bye, they go back out on the ice and lose the 1-2 page game in an extra end, to the 2nd place team (7-3). They now play the 4th place team (say 6-4) who just beat the third place team (6-4). They lose that game as well in an extra end, and they are out of the competition having lost only 2 games to teams with worse records. Long and the short of it, and in my view, the first place team after the round robin should be fairly rewarded.
Just like the pre-page playoff, Briers and Provincials, when only 3 teams made the playoffs.



You are mostly right in what you say, although I would argue that any team that finishes first and then loses back to back games, or 2 of 3 games, doesn't deserve to be a champion. No system, even yours, is perfect of course because the 11-0 team can lose their one and only game in the final against an inferior team throughout the week. But I get that you feel they should at least be guaranteed a finals spot.

But as Hot Rocks says, the current Page system is a business decision by the networks and ultimately that benefits the curlers the most through added dollars. Given no solutiion is ideal (i.e. the undefeated team losing the final), I have no problem with the current format.

Last edited by rick8end on 02-25-17 at 12:06PM

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Old Post 02-25-17 12:03PM
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Frozencanuck
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 61

Like I said

After having beat Rachel Holman in a playoff match, now Manitoba must face them again. Name one other sport where that would happen. And that is why the Page playoff system sucks.

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Old Post 02-25-17 11:28PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 415

YES, BUT

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
After having beat Rachel Holman in a playoff match, now Manitoba must face them again. Name one other sport where that would happen. And that is why the Page playoff system sucks.



That's all well and good, BUT if MB lost the 1-2 game they'd be the first ones saying thank God we get another chance. ALL teams entering know the set up and are aware of the planned playoff schedule. Me, I like the winner of the round robin getting a bye right to the final.... maybe even a double knockout for the round robin winner against whoever makes it to the final against them, have to beat them twice. Lots of potential TV games.

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Old Post 02-25-17 11:55PM
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Frozencanuck
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 61

How about this for next year?

Winner of each pool gets bye to semi final. 2 and 3 from each pool play off to get to semi final. Winners of the 2/3 match play crossover pool winner. Winner of this match go to final, losers play a LEGITIMATE bronze medal game. No mulligans. Winners get big advantage. Are you listening curl Canada?

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Old Post 02-26-17 12:50AM
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curlky
Swing Artist

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 488

I believe that the purpose of any playoff is to have the team playing the best win. Many sports do this with a series situation, best of 5 or 7 series would be examples. The sports where 1 and done tend to do that for timing reasons.

The problem with a 1 game elimination scenario is that it brings in the element of luck, whereas a multi-loss format helps to minimize the effect of luck. A great example of "luck" is the NCAA basketball tournament where the top seeded team only wins 1 out of every 4 times statistically.

Curling does not have time to do a series, so you are left with how to minimize the effect of luck to make sure the best team wins. The page playoffs help to ensure this. The round robin final standings can easily skew ones views of this. For example, if in a 12 team round robin, 1 team finished 12-0, and teams 2 through 4 all finished 6-5, and the 12-0 team lost their first match, most woudl say that the 12-0 team deserved a secodn chance. But if the round robin finished with the to 4 teams all 8-3, then not many woudl demand such a thing.

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Old Post 02-26-17 10:17AM
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decade
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 1425

Wink

The page playoffs and bronze game are a cash grab by the CC. Get bums in those seats and help us with our bottom line,

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Old Post 02-26-17 10:35AM
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guido
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 851

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy


No. No they don't. NFL football teams only play 13 unique opponents and don't play the other 16 teams. NHL does play each opponent, but not in an equal number of games. MLB baseball doesn't play each team. No idea about nba. None of them play a regular season where you only play each opponent once. Also, the playoffs are a best of 5 or 7 games, so there are still chances to lose a game, and advance. Any other illogical comparisons you'd like to make?



What percentage of teams should make the playoffs???
NHL has more than 50% in the playoffs.
NFL has 30%
NBA has more than 50%
MLB has 30%

Curling has 33% will have 25%
If you go straight to 1v4 2v3 what advantage does the first place team have?? There would be more meaningless games at the end of the rr. page is the answer.

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Old Post 02-26-17 11:07AM
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