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08-03-17 02:55PM
SkipsWhoSayNi is offline Click Here to See the Profile for SkipsWhoSayNi Find more posts by SkipsWhoSayNi Add SkipsWhoSayNi to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
SkipsWhoSayNi
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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I was incredulous in finding that almost all Olympic sports that are based on a game have a system to dissuade the top talent from participating and to protect their own chosen national teams.

I tried to get a basketball team together to challenge for an Olympic berth but was told no.

I think they are taking a page from the HPP. It's Un-American .

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08-03-17 03:37PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Those other team sports also allow for substitution in the middle of a game, at the coach's discretion for strategic purposes, of multiple players off of a deep bench. As such, it is possible, even probable, that the 2nd best team's starters are better players than the bench players of the best team, and as such, would result in a better team overall.

Curling, on the other hand, only allows a single substitution, of a single player in game (and, technically, it is *supposed* to be for injury/illness...although that is just about the least enforced rule in history). As such, the depth of the team's "bench" is fairly irrelevant. Most teams will play with the same four players for the entire game, every game.

Curling is more akin to Beach Volleyball, Doubles badminton, or other "small team" sports than the "large team" sports.

And guess what those small team sports have in common? If you guessed "The Olympic teams are chosen from Open Competition amongst teams made eligible via clear and obtainable qualification procedures", you are correct.

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08-03-17 04:01PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Thanks for the laugh, Alan 🤡

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08-05-17 01:03PM
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rbi
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anybody know how bobsled chooses their teams?

do they have open competition for the Olympics?

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08-05-17 02:30PM
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AlanMacNiel likes to give just enough pieces of truth to make it seems like his word is the gospel of truth. As always, this is not the case.

Lots of sports besides curling use the appointed method. Just to name a few gymnastics (a hybrid approach where 2 people might be able to qualify by points but rest of team is selected), equestrian teams, bobsled, luge, alpine skiing (a hybrid approach), biathalon, cross country (hybrid), freestyle skiing, nordic combined, short track skating, ski jumping, snowboarding (hybrid). I could go on, but will stop here.

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08-05-17 02:44PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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But Bobsled would be a perfect model for Curling because there are small teams and limited substitutions. Most bobsleders ride the whole way down, just like curlers usually play the whole game.

Last edited by SkipsWhoSayNi on 08-05-17 at 02:47PM

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08-05-17 03:29PM
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rbi
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that's why I mentioned bobsled, especially 4-person teams.

some of the other sports that curlky mentioned don't seem to apply nearly as well.

and bobsled is not a perfect match either. I imagine bobsled has fewer participants nationwide compared with curling, fewer facilities, and is specific to younger athletes. I doubt there is a Team Birr anolog in bobsled.

but still, I'd like to learn about how bobsled picks their teams if somebody knows.

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08-05-17 04:43PM
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Gerry
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Bobsled Qualification:
http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/bob...8-olympic-games

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08-06-17 06:32AM
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IMWright
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
AlanMacNiel likes to give just enough pieces of truth to make it seems like his word is the gospel of truth. As always, this is not the case.

Lots of sports besides curling use the appointed method. Just to name a few gymnastics (a hybrid approach where 2 people might be able to qualify by points but rest of team is selected), equestrian teams, bobsled, luge, alpine skiing (a hybrid approach), biathalon, cross country (hybrid), freestyle skiing, nordic combined, short track skating, ski jumping, snowboarding (hybrid). I could go on, but will stop here.



The sports you mention that are in the "appointed" method, the scoring in the sport in general is subjective in that judges rate how they did. You don't have two figure skaters out on the ice fighting to the death (that would make for entertaining television) or until someone loses. A figure skater skates, and a set of judges rate it. So, given that is how scoring is done, yes, there will have to be a selection committee. We don't go out and say, "well, Team X played better basketball and although the score says they lost, we'll let them win anyways".

Additionally, for bobsled:

"Qualification for the U.S. Olympic team is based on international points earned during the 2017-18 season. The team will be named on Jan. 15."

I could go on, (such as where you are just completely wrong about short track skating being arbitrarily selected - see the 2014 selection criteria - https://webpoint.usspeedskating.org...nt_OtherDoc.pdf - I don't see "at the whims of a committee" anywhere; I would argue that it's actually fairly highly detailed and based on objective quantifiable data/results), but will stop here...

Last edited by IMWright on 08-06-17 at 07:00AM

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08-06-17 11:25AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Yep.

As usual, CurlKY is off the mark and disagreeing with me because I'm me.

Gymnastics *has* to be selected, and somewhat arbitrarily, as the Gymnastics team for *all* events is limited to 4 gymnasts (they vary the numbers from time to time, it used to be 5)...for both the team, individual all-around, and apparatus events.

So you can't take the 4 (for women, 6 for men) apparatus champions....you would be in danger of a team that could not compete in the all around or team championships.

Plus, let's be honest, given the current scandals....we shouldn't be looking to Gymnastics as our model of how to run a program...

Equestrian is difficult because of the horse-rider combination issue, riders ride on multiple horses in low level competitions, but only one horse is allowed per ride in the Olympics.

Bobsled bases team selection on accumulated points over the season, so you're totally wrong there, CurlKY.

USA's biathletes are only appointed if the slots allocated to the US are not filled by automatic qualifiers (http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/bia...ic-winter-games). So, again CurlKY, you're wrong.

Snowboarding team spots (http://ussnowboarding.com/sites/def...I%20AMENDED.pdf) are filled via point accumulation over the world cup season (via a filtering criteria).

In *none* of these cases are all but one team who has been competing on the World Stage made ineligible to even compete for selection to the Olympics unless they are chosen by the committee.

Curling, on the other hand, does.

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08-07-17 04:26AM
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Alice
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For Team Birr's administrative appeal Round 2, "The Hearing", who selects the hearing's judges? A standing ethics committee? Some of the same board members who allowed HPP to have and then use so much discretion?

I'm betting the hearing bench will not be anything remotely like a neutral from another sheet deciding a close call for scoring rocks. Status quo, vested interests will circle their wagons... and win this battle but lose the war ignomniously.

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08-08-17 02:14PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Per the USCA Bylaws:

Section 15.6. - Hearing Panel
Upon the filing of a complaint pursuant to Section 15.2, the chair of the Judicial Committee, after consultation with the other Judicial Committee members, will appoint a Hearing Panel consisting of three (3) individuals to hear the complaint. The chair of the Judicial Committee will also appoint a chair of the Hearing Panel. Judicial Committee members may be appointed to serve on the Hearing Panel. Other disinterested individuals identified by the Judicial Committee may also be appointed to serve on the Hearing Panel. At least one (1) member of the Hearing Panel will be an athlete representative. Members of the Hearing Panel need not be members of USCA or involved in the sport of curling. It is recommended that at least one (1) member of the Hearing Panel have a legal background.

(end quote)

Note that in the event that the Hearing Panel denies the appeal, per Section 15.11, it can be appealed further to the USOC:

Section 15.11. - USOC
Any party may appeal a decision of the Hearing Panel on a complaint identified pursuant to Section 15.1.a.ii to the USOC pursuant to the by-laws of the USOC. Said appeal shall be de novo in nature.

(end quote)

I had to look this up, "de novo" means "as new", ie from scratch with no precedence attached to the initial rejection of the appeal. Assuming the USOC operates under parallel rules to the Courts, the transcript of the USCA hearing would be available to the USOC, but no special weight would be given to the decision.

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08-08-17 07:38PM
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AK267
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If it's appealed to the USOC where will it take place?

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08-08-17 07:40PM
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AlanMacNeill
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I don't see anything that says clearly, but I would guess Colorado Springs by default, unless all parties allowed it to be somewhere else?

That is *COMPLETELY* a guess however.

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08-10-17 02:12PM
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VAcurler
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If we have a hearing in the Springs, can I make popcorn and attend in person?

Jason

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08-10-17 05:25PM
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Alice
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Is this online list of the USCA judicial committee accurate?

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...ittees/Judicial

Are any or all of them conflicted out from selecting the hearing panel?

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08-11-17 05:20AM
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jamcan
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OMG, what a joke your selection process has become. Talk about a biased beauty pagent.

Todd Birr has great results and winning records against some of your 'chosen few' and he's not invited? Talk about protecting your coaching job!

Curling needs to seriously address the role of coaching and restrict its influence in deciding national representatives. If you're the best team in the field and win then you've earned the right to go.

And if you lose, stop whining about how you play lots on the tour and should get a free pass over the team that beat you.

Seriously getting sick of all these curling Prima Donnas that have popped up in the last ten years.

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08-14-17 11:52AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Just another quick update on the subject... I happened to notice a new blog entry on the main CurlingZone page and it turned out to be an article about the controversy around our Olympic Trials selection process.

http://nostonesleftunturned.blogspo...-needed-in.html

I think it's a well-written article that does a good job summarizing the issue, and makes some good points about other discretionary picks and adds some history about other challenges to NGB selection decisions.

It does come with a disclaimer at the end: "This article was prepared by the author in her personal capacity. The opinions expressed in this article are the author's own and do not reflect the views of any organizations that the author is affiliated with."

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08-14-17 12:48PM
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Interesting that (so far as I can tell), that blog is anonymous, and the only entry in it is this one, and that it felt the need to include that disclaimer.

fascinating....

Also factually correct (including the legal citations).

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08-14-17 05:20PM
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dontburntherock
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quote:
Originally posted by jimivey
Just another quick update on the subject... I happened to notice a new blog entry on the main CurlingZone page and it turned out to be an article about the controversy around our Olympic Trials selection process.

http://nostonesleftunturned.blogspo...-needed-in.html

I think it's a well-written article that does a good job summarizing the issue, and makes some good points about other discretionary picks and adds some history about other challenges to NGB selection decisions.

It does come with a disclaimer at the end: "This article was prepared by the author in her personal capacity. The opinions expressed in this article are the author's own and do not reflect the views of any organizations that the author is affiliated with."




quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Interesting that (so far as I can tell), that blog is anonymous, and the only entry in it is this one, and that it felt the need to include that disclaimer.

fascinating....

Also factually correct (including the legal citations).





Hi, I am the author of the blog. I'm glad you guys enjoyed it, and thank you for pointing this out. The blog was never intended to be anonymous; when I look at the blog from behind the scenes, it shows an "About Me" section that I didn't realize wasn't showing up until this post. I've added my name (Bobbie Todd) in the header until I get the "About Me" widget sorted out.

The reason I have the disclaimer is because I have other publications and did not want people to associate those publications with the content that is currently on the blog and will be posted to it in the future.

Also, thanks for the compliment about the legal citations. I thought I was going to have to bust out my Bluebook at one point, haha.

Last edited by dontburntherock on 08-14-17 at 05:22PM

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08-15-17 11:20AM
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biterbar
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An excellent blog with many excellent points.

Of course the answer is our "Powers that Be" watched Birr take the silver and are scared Sh**less that they could take the title and pull another Shuster, ala 2014, on them thus proving them a failure.

The only "best interests" involved in this that of the HPP.

Let them play. Every curler I have talked to this summer says the same thing, this is a joke.

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08-17-17 01:00PM
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New National qualification rules for 2018.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...rocess-for-2018


ēAny eligible team within the Top 75 in the WCT OOM Year-To-Date rankings by or on Jan. 31,2018, can qualify to represent USA at the 2018 Menís/Womenís World Championships by winning the 2018 U.S. Menís and Womenís National Championships.

ēAny eligible team that has earned 40 points in the WCT OOM Year-To-Date rankings by or on Jan. 31, 2018, can qualify to represent USA at the 2018 Menís/Womenís World Championships by winning the 2018 U.S. Menís and Womenís National Championships.


"The premise of the AAC proposal was that the 2018 World Championships are less important since they do not factor into the 2022 Olympic qualifying process; the current world team qualifying standards discourage some competitive teams from participating in the Nationals process since they donít believe they can be Team USA at the World Championships, and that USA Curling should be encouraging more up-and-coming teams to compete as we look toward the 2022 Games."

More inclusive for "the less important" championships.

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08-17-17 01:03PM
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Fairly good news there.

Question: What if a team outside the top 75 and with less than 40 points on my birthday wins Nationals?

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08-17-17 02:56PM
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Fairly good news there.

Question: What if a team outside the top 75 and with less than 40 points on my birthday wins Nationals?



Points leader who is inside the Top 75 and finishes in the Top 3 at Nationals will represent the USA at the Worlds.

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