Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

It is surpassingly obvious that Olympic Gold is the greatest prize in curling. And considered so by both players and fans.

For Canadian curlers it is equally obvious that the second greatest prize is the Brier. The tradition, the fact that you get to represent your province. The number of people in the stands, that watch it on TV. The fact that any curler can sign up and compete. All of these facts make it glaringly obvious, and I really can't imagine anyone ever arguing otherwise. Much less arguing their case successfully. It most certainly is not something I would ever argue.

What is open for debate is the importance of the Slams when looking to determine the greatness of teams.

And as someone brought up Team McEwen let's use them as example.

Team McEwen has now won three Slams. In terms of Slams this puts them behind only a very few teams. Team Martin, Howard, Middaugh, and Stougton.

Team Harris by contrast won a Silver in the Olympics, and with a different Vice made it to a Brier, missing the playoffs. Which is the better team? If you think the Slams are worth nothing it's no contest. If by contrast you think that the Slams are events that test the players to their utmost then Team McEwen being in the top five all time for Slam wins means there is a contest.

I can tell you this for free. If you were to ask Mike Harris which team was more accomplished his Brier team or McEwen's team my guess is he'd laugh out loud assuming you couldn't possibly be serious.

Last edited by JB42 on 03-30-14 at 05:47PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 207

quote:

---

Originally posted by Unregistered


But where are the butts in the seats?
Which was how this discussion started in the first place!

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

quote:

---

Originally posted by JB42


What I do know, and anyone else can easily look up, is the depth of the fields at the Slams. They are comprised of the top teams in curling full stop.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: 173.252.12.103

Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

You decry the lack of depth of the Scottish curling nation, and on the other you castigate the very kinds of events that keep Canadian curling so deep. Consistency may be the hobgoblin of small minds but contradiction is just plain bad logic.

The money the players make on the Slam circuit may not mean anything to you but I can guarantee it means a great deal to them in terms of freeing them to explore their curling potential. If you want the depth of Canadian curling to remain at its current stellar level you had better hope for an expansion rather than a contraction of the WCT and the Slams.

As to your denigration of the lower seeded teams to make the Slams. I could point out that Dacey is a former Brier winner which I had thought you valued above all other wins. Consistency for sure is not your problem.

Brock Virtue was hot enough early this year that people on CZ were decrying his exclusion from the pre-trials.
Botcher is a former World Junior Champ. Tyler George is 24th. And at 24th that makes him higher rated than half the teams at the Brier.

Not to mention the fact that NO other event in the world ever has the top ten teams in the world much less regularly as do the Slams in non-Olympic years. This year they could only manage the top 8 ranked teams in the world for The National. (along with the 11th and 12th) Not as strong as they usually get true. But stronger than ANY other event this year, except for the other Slams which did better with less conflict from other events. As will the Players Championship I would imagine. So yea, again, you can look it up.

Last edited by JB42 on 03-30-14 at 09:43PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

The CPC did have a stellar field. It's a great event year in year out without a doubt.

However without Jacobs, Howard, Stoughton and Gushue it obviously did not have as good a field as any of the Slams much less a better one.

This is I stress not a knock against the Cactus Pheasant Classic.

I'm a huge fan for example of the WCT event at my club, the High Park Curling Club. The Stu Sells Toronto Tankard. Which did feature Howard, Gushue, Stoughton and McEwen. But did not have Jacobs, Martin, Morris, Edin, Ulsruud.

I return to the unassailable facts. The Slams are the ONLY event in the world that EVER has the top ten teams. Even during a conflict laden schedule sandwiched between the Olympics and the Worlds they still pulled off a better field than any other event outside of the Slams. Anywhere. Ever. I.e. The top 8 teams in the world at the National and 10 out of the top 12.

I also promise this is the last time I will mention the Slams in this thread. Let us go back to what initiated this thread.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631

Nice points JB. Not your fault if people want to ignore your arguments.

Olympics is the most important event to curlers, followed by the Brier, but the Slams do have the toughest fields in curling. Both can be true.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Gerry, any idea why the Players championship get cut down to 12 teams when it was advertised as 15 all year?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: 184.151.61.252

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:

---

Originally posted by Unregistered
Gerry, any idea why the Players championship get cut down to 12 teams when it was advertised as 15 all year?

---

__________________
CurlingZone
Everything...Curling!

Please click on our sponsors' banners periodically, as visiting their sites helps keep CurlingZone.com Free!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371

The draw times do not look correct for the playoffs. It lists the womens QFs at 4:00 PM ET on Saturday, the mens QFs at 5:00, then the mens semis at 8:30 PM ET and the womens semis at 11:30 PM ET.

Is there really an overlap with the QFs? Also, the womens SFs won't be starting after midnight AT, would they?

__________________
Art M

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gerry


Originally started with 12 because of the Olympic year historically being tough to fill and then changed early in the season when a lot of teams said they would be going.

Once we started sending invites out, we had several declines, getting to 18th ranked team on Men's side and 25th ranking team on Women's side, so the decision was to run with 12/12 or we'd be still going down the list with the event nearing.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Somehow Epping managed to sneak into the Players after a mediocre season.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: 24.114.79.140

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

quote:

---

Originally posted by Unregistered
Somehow Epping managed to sneak into the Players after a mediocre season.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: 74.216.57.179

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:

---

Originally posted by Unregistered
Somehow Epping managed to sneak into the Players after a mediocre season.

---

__________________
CurlingZone
Everything...Curling!

Please click on our sponsors' banners periodically, as visiting their sites helps keep CurlingZone.com Free!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 498

quote:

---

Originally posted by murphyj87
1 in every 25 Canadians is, or has been at one time, a curler. That doesn't sound like a fringe sport at all.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

There are more players in curling leagues than there are in hockey leagues. So I guess hockey is even more fringe?

I am speaking only of Canada of course.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 498

I call BS on that. Source?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

TSN is the source

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

It is true, albeit misleading.

As the vast majority of curlers are members of clubs, and the clubs organize leagues, pretty much every curler is in a league.

A lot of hockey players by contrast as they get older drop out of competitive organized play and as a result the 'unofficial' hockey they continue to play is not counted as league play.

There are of course more Canadians playing hockey than there are Canadians playing curling. It is nonetheless true that there are more players in curling leagues than there are players in hockey leagues. Not to mention that there are over a million curlers in Canada. Making it a long way from a fringe sport in this country however you want to count the players.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

Where it is fringe is as a professional sport.

The crowds are tiny at the WCT events. The prize money is minuscule even when compared to bowling. Which you gotta admit is some way down the ladder of professional sport.

Small crowds, small prize money, that is pretty much the definition of fringe I'd say.

It is however very important to qualify this statement as being within the context of the hierarchy of professional sports money. And within the context of how other much other countries care about it.

When you instead consider the place of curling in Canada and it's popularity in Canada a very different picture emerges. Curling has far higher participation rates than bowling for example. I can also guarantee that there are more Canadians curling than are playing American football. The premier sports league in North America. I would also be very surprised if someone was able to prove to me that there were more Canadian playing 20 to 80 baseball or basketball games a year than there are Canadians playing that many curling games.

And when it comes to Canadians watching curling the numbers are up there with NHL hockey games.

All this tells me that when you are talking about sports in Canada curling is anything but a fringe sport.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

If curling is as popular as you suggest JB, why are entries in bonspiels, junior spiels, etc. INCREDIBLY down from a decade ago.

I love curling and never miss an event. I live in B.C., but am originally from Manitoba. Back in its heyday, there were 600 to 700 men's teams in the Manitoba Bonspiel. The number has shrank so much that this year the Spiel, renamed itself the Manitoba Open and capped the number of teams at 256. In seeming desperation to get to that figure, the MCA invited women and junior curlers to participate. Participation in curling, other than the viewing of televised major curling events like the Brier, is plummeting.

I agree with you that curling is not a fringe sport (yet). But you seem to be suggesting that it is healthy and robust and respectfully that's just not true in Canada right now. Hopefully the Olympic Gold Medal success will reverse the participation decline.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: 70.78.26.214

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812

Yes, bonspiel entries are down. On the other hand, club membership is up for most clubs in USA and new clubs are being formed. It is a different world today than it was in the heyday of bonspiiels. Kids are busier than ever and parents today think they have to be at each event their kids are involved in. The result is lots less free weekends for bonspieling. But in spite of fewer curlers playing in bonspiels and playdowns, I cannot speak for Canada but it seems the same dynamics probably apply to bonspiels up there too.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Curling is dying...no money in it and its a waste of time for most...clubs are shutting down everywhere.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: 70.76.192.121

Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

I wasn't suggesting a trendline in either direction for the simple reason that I don't know the data. My only point was that curling is not a fringe sport at the moment in terms of participation rates, and television numbers here in Canada.

I do know here in Toronto that participation rates are declining. They have to be as curlers cannot play their game without facilities and here in Toronto there have been number of facilities that have closed and no new facilities have come online. The Boulevard, Avonlea, and Lampton, that I know of. There may be others. It is not a subject to which I've paid much attention.

As for the rest of the country I have not the foggiest idea. The CCA would be the logical place to look if one is interested in the actual data.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2013
Location: Waterloo, ON
Posts: 8

quote:

---

Originally posted by JB42
I'm sure team Koe will be fine at the World's. They've played together for so long that the ability to shut out distractions while on the ice is second nature.

There is also the not inconsiderable fact that the Canadian Men are far more dominant than the Canadian women at the World's. For example in the last six years the Canadian women have won zero golds wheras the men have won 4.

Since 1990 the men have won 15 and the women 9.

The men also pretty much never miss the playoffs. The only time they've finished out of the top 4 was the year McDuff represented us.

In the men's game three teams are currently in the top ten of the money list. Sven 6, Liu 9 and Ulsruud 10. So none in the top five.

When it comes to men's curling we are pretty much as close to a lock as things come in sport.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 9

quote:

---

Originally posted by Unregistered
If curling is as popular as you suggest JB, why are entries in bonspiels, junior spiels, etc. INCREDIBLY down from a decade ago.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged