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01-25-15 11:22AM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
I remember what one of the Satrom boys used to preach adnauseum: The "best" team wins Nationals about 80% of the time...but the "best" team finishes on top of the round robin about 97% of the time...we should just crown the winner of the round robin.
True, but we love our playoffs. They are compelling and we really love a Gold Medal Game. Two loss provisions? I understand the logic and the sentiment and the justice. Still, I'll stick with using nationally whatever format our teams will see at Worlds.
It's curling. Stuff happens. It also happens in every other sport. That seems to be part of sports' great allure. The drama and the naked display of the human spirit is not something to be tampered with lightly.
While I feel for Team Dropkin and while I concede that they did beat Team Meyers 2 out of 3 games, I'm not yet to a point where I'd give up what this format brings us in order to address any perceived injustices. For instance: Scared to roll the dice for our Olympic Trials, we shrunk the field and made the qualification process more demanding...then played a double round robin...then made "the finals" a best-two-out-of-three. Did that format take steps to ensure that we sent our best representatives? I really think that it did. But that format wasn't very compelling at all. I hated it.
Congrats to Team Meyers on changing your name to Team USA. Great final game. Best of luck at Worlds.
Ben Tucker
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01-25-15 12:01PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Tuck nails it. We certainly are not going back to naming the RR winner as the champ. The current format makes sense in part because of the allure of a single gold medal game and in part because that is format used at international events. We cannot change the format every time we perceive that the "wrong" team won. And like it or not, we need a format that will also appeal to curling fans and draw them to these events. The HP team had a very successful year and came within an eyelash of perhaps winning the junior title -- if Dropkin makes the double Meyers would still have had a shot to win but it would hardly have been a given. So kudos to team Meyers and kudos to team Dropkin. We will hear more from these guys in the future.
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01-26-15 11:01AM |
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licurler
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2014
Location:
Posts: 15 |
Both teams have a bright future, regardless of who won the gold medal match. This is good for the future of US curling.
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01-26-15 11:10AM |
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courtneyshaw
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 41 |
quote: Originally posted by misty1
didnt someone on here say that the HP teams get invited to the mens nationals or only if they won?
The HP teams are invited whether they win or lose at Junior Nationals. The winner of Junior Nationals is also invited. In this case, Meyers and Dropkin are both invited.
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01-26-15 11:30AM |
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MNIceman
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159 |
According the the USCA rules the Jr. Champs are required to play in Men's/Women's nationals:
"8. Junior World Team Preparation: To prepare for the World Junior Championships the winning teams are required to play in the subsequent Men’s & Women’s US National Championships"
Wondering which team Korey will play on in Kalamazoo since he is now the 5th on Meyer's team.
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01-26-15 11:41AM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote: Originally posted by MNIceman
Wondering which team Korey will play on in Kalamazoo since he is now the 5th on Meyer's team.
IF it's anything other than on his own team, the USCA is letting him violate the rules...
He was declared as a player on a team for Nationals (Skip for his own rink). Other teams have, in the past, tried to substitute players because of emergencies or other reasons and been denied.
Dropkin had *better* be playing Skip on his HP team at Nationals, or he had better not be there at all, or the entire "we're not stacking the deck, we're just making sure they have access" argument will be proven completely false...as they'd be letting a player switch teams when others have been denied before.
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01-26-15 11:54AM |
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MNIceman
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159 |
Interesting way to look at it. My thought was that Korey needs to start playing as 5th for Meyer's to best prepare that team for World's.
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01-26-15 12:41PM |
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VAcurler
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 136 |
quote: Originally posted by MNIceman
Interesting way to look at it. My thought was that Korey needs to start playing as 5th for Meyer's to best prepare that team for World's.
Wouldn't everyone be better off if he did NOT play as 5th for the Meyer's rink? Dressing and being there for support is one thing but to actually play in games kind of defeats the purpose of a team selecting its own players. Either the team is self-selected or its a HPP team (and is formed by the USCA).
Regardless, good luck to whichever team he is playing on.
....
Edited to add:
or am I just rehashing old the USCA decides who the 5th is going to be and he will be a backup skip issue?
Jason
Last edited by VAcurler on 01-26-15 at 12:47PM
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01-26-15 12:52PM |
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MNIceman
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159 |
Meyer's team is now under full HP program control. An HP coach will be their official team coach and the HP program has full control on all line up decisions.
If Meyer's team had gone into Nationals with 5 players registered the HP program would have kicked one of them off the team to insert their approved 5th player.
Sad but true.
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01-26-15 12:53PM |
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courtneyshaw
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 41 |
You are rehashing Jason... but since you are far from the worst offender in the anti-HPP tirades, you won't hear about it from me. However, this is an interesting discussion since some of the scenarios here are actually in violation of the rules. I will be interested to hear how it plays out.
In other Junior news... I saw a first today... a score over 20! 21-3 Manitoba over Nunavut. http://www.curlingzone.com/game.php?1=1&gameid=156578
What I actually don't understand is why they were allowed to keep playing.
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01-26-15 01:03PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
Dropkin is the fifth for the Worlds. He would not be the registered fifth for Nationals. Yes, they have in place to add a fifth player who has the ability to skip at Worlds. Old news.
Starting a new thread for Nationals.
__________________
JH
Go Phils, got my WS bet on you
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01-26-15 01:03PM |
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VAcurler
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 136 |
I hereby redact my uneducated comments after being reprimanded by my crazy cat lady friend. As penance I shall volunteer to sub in men's league next week when I visit PCC.
I didn't realize that by winning you become under full control of the HPP program.
Nonetheless, good luck to the Dropkin rink. If decorum allows for betting on junior teams playing in men's events I will take the odds.
Jason
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01-26-15 01:11PM |
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courtneyshaw
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 41 |
Watch the crazy cat lady finger pointing! And I will see you in men's league if I can find a team to spare on.
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01-26-15 01:25PM |
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IMWright
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 206 |
quote: Originally posted by MNIceman
I guess that question has been answered:
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...Qualified-Teams
Looks like Korey will be with the HP Team. Doesn't seem to me that this is the best way to prep Team USA for worlds.
I don't quite agree. He'll be the 5th at worlds, I doubt he'll get much (if any) playing time at Worlds, unless the powers-that-be manipulate rules (yet again) and/or force that (which if I was one of the guys who had to sit out after rightfully winning at nationals, I would be quite upset). So I don't see how him being a 5th on the sidelines at nationals does much to prep Team USA for worlds. So why not play with his regular HP team at nationals, they'll probably do pretty decent.
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01-26-15 02:48PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
quote: Originally posted by MNIceman
Looks like Korey will be with the HP Team. Doesn't seem to me that this is the best way to prep Team USA for worlds.
This only makes sense. Not sure how sitting in the stands watching his Worlds teammates play is a good way to prep for Worlds.
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01-26-15 02:52PM |
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MNIceman
Hitting Paint
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159 |
If Korey will be sitting on the bench at worlds he needs to start to figure out what he can do as fifth to help his team. Also I think it would help with general team chemistry if they spent the week together as a team.
If the HP program is already planning on playing Korey at Worlds they might as well start that now too so they have more time to get used to whatever lineup they'll be using.
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01-26-15 03:35PM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
The USA High Performance Program apparent strategies requiring non-HP national winners to have an all-positions qualified skip/fifth from the last year's HP team for worlds, not allowing winning team choice of the coach who helped them win nationals, and giving the HP staff total lineup discretion before and during games, "Good luck with that" while recalling the Vancouver Olympics' benchings, the Murdoch/Brewster mashup team at Sochi and this classic gem of "performance" coaching power over players:
http://skipcottagecurling.blogspot....ation-case.html
I followed last week the Pacific-Asian Junior playdowns for Junior Worlds. The Chinese teams rolled through the round robins on top and then lost by whiskers in the gold medal games to the Koreans for the single Junior Men and Women Worlds' slots for that region this year. The Koreans' comments on teamwork during the event on the event website are worth reading.
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01-26-15 04:46PM |
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steveneger
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 26 |
Dropkins team played well (better than what I saw earlier) but were lucky to be undefeated in round robin play. They weren't dominating teams like an HPP (and as Tuck likes to point out a team with great showings at Canadian bonspiels) should have. Many of the games I watched the other teams were giving away points without Dropkin doing anything. The Meyers game was where it caught up to them and rightfully so. Good showing but not what I expect from the funded & coddled team.
-*******
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01-26-15 05:49PM |
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TNH
Hitting Paint
Registered: May 2011
Location:
Posts: 161 |
Pressure now on HPP decision makers?
Ethan Meyers win may force the HPP to say goodbye to some senior men this off season.
The HPP presently has 3 junior rinks to develop under Project 2018 (Dropkin, Meyers, Vukich). The core of the 2018 Olympic team will probably come from these teams so it would be surprising to see cuts here. Nice problem to have. Does that mean we can expect some members of men's A and B teams to lose financial HPP support?
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01-26-15 06:53PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
I'm loving the conversation. Mostly because I'm not part of it. However, one post has me itching to be snarky and make a feeble attempt at humor. I can't resist. Please try to see the humor:
IM went with, "He'll be the 5th at worlds, I doubt he'll get much (if any) playing time at Worlds, unless the powers-that-be manipulate rules (yet again) and/or force that (which if I was one of the guys who had to sit out after rightfully winning at nationals, I would be quite upset)."
Uuummm...dude...OK...where have been ever since the Vancouver Olympics? It's now an annual event at one of the Worlds.
See, it's kinda funny because it's kinda true. I'll be funnier next time. I promise.
Ben Tucker
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01-26-15 08:27PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
quote: Originally posted by steveneger
Dropkins team played well (better than what I saw earlier) but were lucky to be undefeated in round robin play. They weren't dominating teams like an HPP (and as Tuck likes to point out a team with great showings at Canadian bonspiels) should have. Many of the games I watched the other teams were giving away points without Dropkin doing anything. The Meyers game was where it caught up to them and rightfully so. Good showing but not what I expect from the funded & coddled team.
-*******
Not sure what you expect from Dropkin's team. They were undefeated in RR play, won every game save one by 4 points or more, and averaged over 5 points per game more than their opponents. Playing the same teams, Meyers won one game by only 1 rock and 2 other games by 2 points, and they averaged 2.5 points per game more than his opposition. The two teams scored roughly the same number of points in RR but Meyers gave up almost twice as many points as Dropkin. Dropkin had a very successful year leading up to Nationals and was in control of most games in the RR, yet you say they were lucky to be undefeated and it caught up with them in the finals "rightfully so"??? Yes, Dropkin's team was funded but calling them coddled suggests some animosity on your part -- not sure they deserve that.
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01-26-15 11:56PM |
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IMWright
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 206 |
quote: Originally posted by tuck
I'm loving the conversation. Mostly because I'm not part of it. However, one post has me itching to be snarky and make a feeble attempt at humor. I can't resist. Please try to see the humor:
IM went with, "He'll be the 5th at worlds, I doubt he'll get much (if any) playing time at Worlds, unless the powers-that-be manipulate rules (yet again) and/or force that (which if I was one of the guys who had to sit out after rightfully winning at nationals, I would be quite upset)."
Uuummm...dude...OK...where have been ever since the Vancouver Olympics? It's now an annual event at one of the Worlds.
See, it's kinda funny because it's kinda true. I'll be funnier next time. I promise.
Ben Tucker
Ha, good point. I guess in a "normal" national curling organization, that wouldn't happen. But I did say "unless the powers-that-be manipulate rules (yet again)...." Given the state of things, I guess I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen...
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