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07-23-16 11:24PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote: Originally posted by RockDoc
You may not agree with the approach of the WCF--as you have repetitively demonstrated--but the rulemaking bodies have agreed on how to proceed, and it doesn't at present include sweeping technique. So there is nothing illegal or unethical about single or angle sweeping. But materials are now regulated at the pro level, and have been since last year. The WCF apparently believes, based on the strength of data collected to date, that the necessary adjustments can be made without having to address technique. Ethics has nothing to do with this choice, but practicality does. We shall see how it works this year.
If you agree with the WCF's proposed rules that technology is the key at the competitive level-sorry, there's no 'pro' level-but unnecessary at any other then there is no 'ethical' question regarding what kind of equipment anyone chooses to use.
You can't agree with them on the one issue then turn around and call someone at your club unethical for using a broom considered perfectly acceptable under the rules.
This is where the WCF leadership fails. It makes a rule for less than one percent of the curling population without considering the rest of the curlers. What needs to happen to convince you otherwise? Fist fights in men's leagues when someone calls another cheater for using a legal brooms? Because it is a certainty this is going to cause needless and avoidable conflicts.
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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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07-25-16 03:27AM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
quote: Originally posted by RockDoc
Is it OK to use a hair brush but not a blackhead? Where does one draw the line?
How about drawing the line at the fact that the hair broom was used for decades without any problem, while the Blackhead created much controversy in its entire week or two of use at the elite level...
It's suddenly 'unethical' to use a brush head (hair) which has been used without any problem and without any question as to the ethics of its use for several decades?
Seriously?
It is not using a hair broom that is unethical, it is using a hair broom in combination with certain sweeping techniques which is unethical.
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"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Last edited by On The Nose on 07-25-16 at 03:32AM
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07-26-16 04:58PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote: Originally posted by RockDoc
You may not agree with the approach of the WCF--as you have repetitively demonstrated--but the rulemaking bodies have agreed on how to proceed, and it doesn't at present include sweeping technique. So there is nothing illegal or unethical about single or angle sweeping. But materials are now regulated at the pro level, and have been since last year. The WCF apparently believes, based on the strength of data collected to date, that the necessary adjustments can be made without having to address technique. Ethics has nothing to do with this choice, but practicality does. We shall see how it works this year.
Let is go RockDoc (despite my 100% agreement with everything you are saying). I offer you to never argue with a crazy person. Your information and logic will not changes his beliefs that technique must be addressed. There is nothing that you, I, or even science will every do to have him believe otherwise, so why bother.
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07-26-16 08:48PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote: Originally posted by curlky
Let is go RockDoc (despite my 100% agreement with everything you are saying). I offer you to never argue with a crazy person. Your information and logic will not changes his beliefs that technique must be addressed. There is nothing that you, I, or even science will every do to have him believe otherwise, so why bother.
Grow up curlky. The science supports the fact that this an issue of technique and technology-something I have stated since day one, as have countless others.
Directional microscratches aren't caused by fabric alone but the manner in which the fabric is used. Ignoring this is like believing you can have a chicken without the egg.
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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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07-27-16 01:08AM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I think that the data could already have been released. It will be withheld for as long as possible so rules can be written and passed that may serve the WCF and Curling Canada's agenda.
, even if the research shows different.
Someone has to explain what their agenda is. Last year, according to the conspiracy theorists, it was in favour of their broom sponsors at the expense of Hardline. All that money from big broom, how could they resist?
Now that Hardline is on board with the changes, what's the new agenda? Who is the WCF out to get this time? Who are they in bed with? Guys, bring some coherence to your conspiracy theories.
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07-27-16 01:14AM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
quote: Originally posted by jamcan
This is where the WCF leadership fails. It makes a rule for less than one percent of the curling population without considering the rest of the curlers.
They couldn't make a rule for more than one percent of the curling population even if they wanted to. How can they be faulted for only making rules for the events they control?
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07-27-16 04:01AM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote: Originally posted by peteski
They couldn't make a rule for more than one percent of the curling population even if they wanted to. How can they be faulted for only making rules for the events they control?
Prior to Broomgate there was one, simple rules that applied to everyone: sweep across the running surface of the stone and make your last stroke away.
Have you forgotten this? It worked, it was easy to police and we didn't have the controversy we have today.
And that controversy only exists because the rule was changed.
So who failed? They did. The question is was it on purpose or just because they're idiots.
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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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07-27-16 11:40AM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote: Originally posted by jamcan
Grow up curlky. The science supports the fact that this an issue of technique and technology-something I have stated since day one, as have countless others.
Directional microscratches aren't caused by fabric alone but the manner in which the fabric is used. Ignoring this is like believing you can have a chicken without the egg.
Look up the work of Amit Geffen, lab grown chicken (without the egg) is a thing. If you want to just be a troll, don't be a dumb one.
Back to curling... people have not ignored the technique. There was a conscience decision made to see if it could be addressed with technology alone. They will play the game for a while, and if technology limits aren't sufficient to make the game normal again, then I'm sure there will be a news conference where people will talk about technique. You seem certain like every rule that was made will not solve the issue? How do you know this? I think that some of the slams at the end of the season showed that a few basic rules that were without debate easy to enforce made some good strides to the game. Add in a few things like they have, and I believe that you have a winner.
I know you have said it is super easy, but as I have said, technique regulations are not a simple thing to enforce. You have asked for cameras, on ice officials, and rules on angle. Each of these comes with caveats and complications and all have issues. Some parts of technique might be easy to regulate out, but others are not. Many are just not practical to enforce. If you cannot enforce a rule with 100% precision and accuracy, is it really better than what is out there now?
You wok on an assumption that is a logical fallacy. You like to make everyone know the rule used to be X, and there were no problems. You conclude that this rule X made is so there was perfect sweeping only, and no problems existed. It leaves out the case that potentially the rule was in deed flawed, but an experiment to show that it was flawed was not developed. A classic situation where poor testing leads to conclusion that is scientifically false.
I am going to stop now, as I have been sucked back into an argument with a crazy person, and as stated above, that wont help anyone.
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07-27-16 12:19PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
LMFAO at you curlky. When faced with a logical argument with a solid basis in history and the underlying science surrounding the issue what do you do?
You fall back on Manitoba Legend's old play and call the poster a troll or a crazy person. It's so sad it's hilarious. And trotting out a cloned chicken to reply to an analogy? Weak.
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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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07-27-16 12:55PM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
quote: Originally posted by jamcan
Prior to Broomgate there was one, simple rules that applied to everyone: sweep across the running surface of the stone and make your last stroke away.
Have you forgotten this? It worked, it was easy to police and we didn't have the controversy we have today.
And that controversy only exists because the rule was changed.
So who failed? They did. The question is was it on purpose or just because they're idiots.
My point was that the WCF only makes the rules for WCF events. They don't make the rules for club curling. They are only able to make the rules for less than one percent of curlers. Seems weird to criticize them for not making rules for games they have nothing to do with.
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07-27-16 04:28PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote: Originally posted by peteski
My point was that the WCF only makes the rules for WCF events. They don't make the rules for club curling. They are only able to make the rules for less than one percent of curlers. Seems weird to criticize them for not making rules for games they have nothing to do with.
Was it not the WCF that stated stick curlers could not pass the tee line when delivering a stone? Is there a World Stick Curling Championship?
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07-27-16 04:56PM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
quote: Originally posted by biterbar
Was it not the WCF that stated stick curlers could not pass the tee line when delivering a stone? Is there a World Stick Curling Championship?
I'd have to take your word that the WCF made that rule, but I don't see how they would have any say on the rules a club or league would use. Remember the WCF used the four rock rule for years before we adopted it in Canada.
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07-27-16 05:19PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote: Originally posted by peteski
I'd have to take your word that the WCF made that rule, but I don't see how they would have any say on the rules a club or league would use. Remember the WCF used the four rock rule for years before we adopted it in Canada.
http://www.curlingzone.com/showthread.php?postid=136723
Discussed in detail here fall of 2014.
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Last edited by biterbar on 07-27-16 at 05:23PM
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07-27-16 05:47PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Pretty sure Canada uses rules put forth by Curling Canada while the United States and other countries use WCF rules
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07-27-16 06:35PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Pretty sure Canada uses rules put forth by Curling Canada while the United States and other countries use WCF rules
Well...mostly...
The US *mostly* uses WCF rules, however our stick delivery rule is different (stone over hog, just like a slide)....well...for now...there's a motion on the floor to change it to the T-line for competive (but non-world's/Olympics path) events, in exchange for allowing sticks to play at Clubs and Arena nats and the like)
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