Disclaimer: CurlingZone does not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any Content posted on any Forums area and you acknowledge that any reliance upon such Content shall be at your sole risk. Any Content placed on any Forums area by users and anonymous posters are the views of the user posting the statement, and do not represent the views of CurlingZone or our partners, advertisers or sponsors. By posting anonymously, you are allowing your IP address to be displayed for identification purposes. CurlingZone reserves the right to remove any post at its discretion without warning or explanation.
01-21-15 04:35PM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Has Team Canada Served Its Purpose?
Team Canada was originally created so that the Scott's Tournament of Hearts would hopefully get some people to watch on TV and enable the women's championship to be played in front of something other than friends and family. The first Team Canada was the Connie Laliberte rink in 1993. In the past 20+years women's curling has grown to the point that they have equal television time with the men and most curling fans can now name as many women's teams as men's teams.
We now have a situation in which the "National" championship is "National" in name only. Rather than bringing three teams to the national site for a "One Night Stand", drop Team Canada altogether (before it gets entrenched on the men's side). That way every Province/Territory that wants to participate will be able to...including Nunavut if they're able...or interested.
...and yes, the prior year's winner would have to re-qualify...even if they're the defending World Champions.
By "going back to the roots" of qualification, all curlers-not just ones who can take time off work twice a month to curl on TV-might "re-acquire an interest" in nationals.
Will this have an effect on the number of teams entering national playdowns? I don't know, but the folks in Northern Alberta might be able to speculate.
There it is folks-fire away!
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-21-15 04:41PM |
|
IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
Agree
Especially with this year's men's Team Canada. Missing the most important player, and a couple others after saying they were going to retire after the season, decide to come back for the free ride. Who could blame them. Other than those that actually have to qualify, maybe even twice, through relegation.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-21-15 08:33PM |
|
Guest
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: .
Posts: 1844 |
Re: Has Team Canada Served Its Purpose?
quote: Originally posted by Jimbobogie
Team Canada was originally created so that the Scott's Tournament of Hearts would hopefully get some people to watch on TV and enable the women's championship to be played in front of something other than friends and family. The first Team Canada was the Connie Laliberte rink in 1993. In the past 20+years women's curling has grown to the point that they have equal television time with the men and most curling fans can now name as many women's teams as men's teams.
We now have a situation in which the "National" championship is "National" in name only. Rather than bringing three teams to the national site for a "One Night Stand", drop Team Canada altogether (before it gets entrenched on the men's side). That way every Province/Territory that wants to participate will be able to...including Nunavut if they're able...or interested.
...and yes, the prior year's winner would have to re-qualify...even if they're the defending World Champions.
By "going back to the roots" of qualification, all curlers-not just ones who can take time off work twice a month to curl on TV-might "re-acquire an interest" in nationals.
Will this have an effect on the number of teams entering national playdowns? I don't know, but the folks in Northern Alberta might be able to speculate.
There it is folks-fire away!
The first Team Canada was Linda Moore in 1985.
__________________
Guest
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-21-15 09:02PM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
My bad-actually it was 1986, but point taken.
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-21-15 09:55PM |
|
Radio-Man
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2015
Location: Ontario & Santa Monica
Posts: 268 |
I could care less if there are regions not represented at the Brier or Scotties. There's already enough cannon fodder. For me a National Championship means the best of the best, so if there were ever a scenario where multiple teams from a province were allowed, it wouldn't bother me. There is great history to these events but they feel dated.
I'm all for a Team Canada because it means there is another team capable of winning.
__________________
"I'm not seeking penance for what I've done, Father. I'm asking forgiveness... for what I'm about to do"
"It means that I'm not the Samaritan. That I'm not the priest, or the Levite. That I am the ill intent...who set upon the traveler on a road that he should not have been on."
Last edited by Radio-Man on 01-21-15 at 09:58PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-21-15 10:39PM |
|
IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
Another response from Ontario who expects them to be an auto berth in the Brier every year. What happens when as early as THIS year a no-name team wins the province, goes to the brier and gets relegated and then doesn't qualify through relegation the following year?? Will you sing the same song or another tune? I think not.
You just don't get it that the Brier is more than a National Championship. It's for teams from Coast to Coast going back almost 90 years. I suppose you want to go back back the days where Ontario had 3 of the 8 teams...... and still lost.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-21-15 10:52PM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
quote: Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
Another response from Ontario who expects them to be an auto berth in the Brier every year. What happens when as early as THIS year a no-name team wins the province, goes to the brier and gets relegated and then doesn't qualify through relegation the following year?? Will you sing the same song or another tune? I think not.
You just don't get it that the Brier is more than a National Championship. It's for teams from Coast to Coast going back almost 90 years. I suppose you want to go back back the days where Ontario had 3 of the 8 teams...... and still lost.
Radio Man, in that case, why have the Brier or Scottie at all? We already know who the money-winners are...and it will save us having to fly in a team from...well, anywhere. The Canadian WCT winners go to the worlds. That should satisfy everybody-not to mention saving the provincial/territorial associations a bundle of money staging those useless provincial/territorial championships. TSN can fill the spare air time with soccer, darts or snooker during the day and hockey or lacrosse at night.
I guess I was wrong...
__________________
Jim
Last edited by Jimbobogie on 01-21-15 at 10:58PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-21-15 11:04PM |
|
IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
sarcasm?
Sometimes it's hard to read between the lines as far as sarcasm or dead serious is involved. I hope you weren't serious about the money winners. The whole idea of the Brier is to have all the provinces compete to see who goes to the worlds. TSN has about 5 channels now they need to fill with air time, and when I asked them last week why they had all the skins games on the main channel but decided not to carry the men's final, but the the first 2 hours of the Australian Open tennis of a 2 week event, there was no reply.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-21-15 11:50PM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Re: sarcasm?
quote: Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
Sometimes it's hard to read between the lines as far as sarcasm or dead serious is involved. I hope you weren't serious about the money winners. The whole idea of the Brier is to have all the provinces compete to see who goes to the worlds. TSN has about 5 channels now they need to fill with air time, and when I asked them last week why they had all the skins games on the main channel but decided not to carry the men's final, but the the first 2 hours of the Australian Open tennis of a 2 week event, there was no reply.
Yup, I can be a sarcastic SOB when I want to be...but take a look at Radio Man's post. Do you think he cares if the longest-running national curling championship in the world (I stand to be corrected by somebody from Scotland, but until then...) includes anybody from east of the Manitoba border? The sad part is that he's not alone...and there are obviously folks in Ottawa who feel the same way. I started this thread fully expecting to get a response like that of Radio Man...there may be more. It's OK, I love criticism.
BTW, it won't matter how many of the "Big Money" rinks play in the "New, Improved Brier"-if TSN has a bigger event (like watching the Maple Leafs display their wonderful version of "Our National Game") then curling will get the bump. That's another thread...
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-22-15 12:03AM |
|
Radio-Man
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2015
Location: Ontario & Santa Monica
Posts: 268 |
quote: Originally posted by Jimbobogie
Radio Man, in that case, why have the Brier or Scottie at all? We already know who the money-winners are...and it will save us having to fly in a team from...well, anywhere. The Canadian WCT winners go to the worlds. That should satisfy everybody-not to mention saving the provincial/territorial associations a bundle of money staging those useless provincial/territorial championships. TSN can fill the spare air time with soccer, darts or snooker during the day and hockey or lacrosse at night.
I guess I was wrong...
The Brier and Scotties are the two biggest events every year in this country, so asking me why we should have it at all is a bit disingenuous...I realize that provincial pride and pageantry is a huge draw for many people, it was for me at one time, but I've moved beyond that. I'd much prefer a strength of field Brier or Scotties over an all inclusive one with weaker fields, especially when determining a National Champion. That's why I'm for a Team Canada, it adds a proven winner to the field.
__________________
"I'm not seeking penance for what I've done, Father. I'm asking forgiveness... for what I'm about to do"
"It means that I'm not the Samaritan. That I'm not the priest, or the Levite. That I am the ill intent...who set upon the traveler on a road that he should not have been on."
Last edited by Radio-Man on 01-22-15 at 12:06AM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-22-15 02:07AM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
The Brier and Scotties are the biggest events-even bigger than the WCT Championships. The question is why. When the Brier is held in Calgary, the Flames will be making their "East Coast Swing". When the WCT has their championship both men and women combine their events and although this year's final is going to be held in Toronto look at the facility-they're not playing the ACC or even the Ricoh Coliseum. I see you're from Ontario-have you gone to an event at the Matamy Centre? The Mattamy Centre is Ryerson's new athletic facility located on the second and third levels of what used to be Maple Leaf Gardens The basketball team plays on the second level and the ice is on the third level. It's a nice place, but it holds less than 3,000 people.
Most of the building is a major grocery chain super-store (they're not paying me to advertise so I'm not going to say the name).
How would you distinguish your concept of the Brier or Scotties from just another tour event? I think that this is the question a lot of us "Old Timers" would have for you "Reformers"-that's not an insult-it's just a name that seems to fit.
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-22-15 03:24AM |
|
Radio-Man
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2015
Location: Ontario & Santa Monica
Posts: 268 |
quote: Originally posted by Jimbobogie
How would you distinguish your concept of the Brier or Scotties from just another tour event? I think that this is the question a lot of us "Old Timers" would have for you "Reformers"-that's not an insult-it's just a name that seems to fit.
Went to the Mattamy Centre for the Players a couple of years ago.
What can I say? I guess we'll see how relegation impacts these events going forward. I understand fully how these events are part of the Canadian cultural fabric and rooted in prestige and traditions. Without these qualities they may cease to be what made them so special in the first place, but change is inevitable. The WCT will probably never be as big or iconic as the Brier or Scotties, particularly if it's going to be the event that sends Canadian teams to the World Championships. I'd agree that they are bigger events, bigger cultural events, but not quality curling events.
In an ideal scenario there would be 3-4 great teams in every province and territory and parity would rule supreme, but that's not the case. I've just gotten over the historical concept of the event and the "charm" of seeing doormats go up against the big guns in a National Championship.
I don't feel I should have to distinguish the Brier or Scotties from other tour events simply because they are still distinct in their concept and "Canadiana" and will probably always be so. Even with relegation (if it sticks).
__________________
"I'm not seeking penance for what I've done, Father. I'm asking forgiveness... for what I'm about to do"
"It means that I'm not the Samaritan. That I'm not the priest, or the Levite. That I am the ill intent...who set upon the traveler on a road that he should not have been on."
Last edited by Radio-Man on 01-22-15 at 03:27AM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-22-15 10:16AM |
|
Frozencanuck
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 76 |
Team Canada
The worst thing about the team Canada concept is that most provinces , particularly in womens curling, do not have the depth to send 2 competitive teams. The result I'd another weak team at the championships
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-22-15 10:27AM |
|
curling gezzer
Knee-Slider
Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 4 |
No byes, no seeding, want to represent Ontario, sign-up and play thru zones, regions and provincals. All players and teams should start out equal.
WCL keep all your events, but should have no bearing on OCA playdowns. And why is it two of the strongest teams in Ontario have to bring out of province players, there a alot of good young players in Ontario to pick from.
Stop catering to a few.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-22-15 11:18AM |
|
WrongHandle
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 66 |
Territories should have a playdown in Yellowknife in Jan or Feb for right to represent all Territories, including Turks and Caicos when they join, with one team at the brier. Then you have 10 provincies+Territory team+Team Canada since the powers that be are so bent on having Team Canada. I don't like the Team Canada concept except for the fact it opens up one more spot for a new team to experience the Brier when one domininant team exists in a province. I like to see teams have to do what Howard tried to do this year. There is some lore, perhaps slowly being forgotten, in having to beat the lowly club team on falling negative ice in a two sheeter on the way to the world championship. I think this is good for the sport in that people can identify with having played these top guys. Name another sport in which you can do that except maybe English soccer in which even the timiest of hamlets enter the FA cup. But even there, the big guys don't start until the third round. No one gets a bye to the final 12.
Relegation is a very bad concept, especially for those who finally win their province after years of trying and then don't get to experience the show. That is a poorly thought out idea.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-22-15 03:13PM |
|
curler2014
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 56 |
quote: Originally posted by WrongHandle
Relegation is a very bad concept, especially for those who finally win their province after years of trying and then don't get to experience the show. That is a poorly thought out idea.
The CCA needs to maintain fiscal responsibility - the current format was going to cause them to lose their funding from Sport Canada and Own the Podium due to not being inclusive.
Point 1: So they NEED to allow every member association an equitable chance to get to the big show. Not doing so, or by ignoring this fact and not making a change, they would lose money and not be fiscally responsible.
Point 2: If they allowed all teams into the big show (ie. no relegation), it would cost them too much (remember they are the ONLY national body that pays for it's competitors travel, hotel, per diem AND the playing surface. All other national bodies only cover cost of the playing surface and run the event as such). Therefore, they would lose money and dig a hole, financially and again, not be fiscally responsible.
Point 3: You all want "the big show" - that costs money. So to keep it as big a show as it is and not scale it back (because I'm sure that would be a bone to pick if it wasn't relegation), they had to change the format. Again, to maintain fiscal responsibility. You all can't have it both ways.
It's a case of if it's not one thing it's another and not everyone is going to be happy.
I personally think the CCA should cut out giving people the travel cost, hotel cost, per diem. Make the provincial/territorial association responsible...or get there yourself. I know one thing is for sure...if you said I could play even just one game in the brier, only thing is, I have to pay my own way...I'm sure as heck finding a way to pay for that.
Too many of the teams view the Brier or the Scotties as an all inclusive trip - especially the ones that seem to land there every year...and I'm not talking about the ones that are there to win, like legit have a chance at winning - they aren't there to party, they're there to win and that's what needs to stay in this sport. A lot of the teams like PEI or NL that send the same weak team every year know they don't have a shot in heck, so they view it as a trip. And that's why I think relegation is a good thing. It's going to force the traditionally weaker provinces to get better just to make the big show. It's no longer party time with the boys. Sorry PEI.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-22-15 03:31PM |
|
Borough Boy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2007
Location:
Posts: 48 |
quote: Originally posted by curler2014
The CCA needs to maintain fiscal responsibility - the current format was going to cause them to lose their funding from Sport Canada and Own the Podium due to not being inclusive.
Point 1: So they NEED to allow every member association an equitable chance to get to the big show. Not doing so, or by ignoring this fact and not making a change, they would lose money and not be fiscally responsible.
Point 2: If they allowed all teams into the big show (ie. no relegation), it would cost them too much (remember they are the ONLY national body that pays for it's competitors travel, hotel, per diem AND the playing surface. All other national bodies only cover cost of the playing surface and run the event as such). Therefore, they would lose money and dig a hole, financially and again, not be fiscally responsible.
Point 3: You all want "the big show" - that costs money. So to keep it as big a show as it is and not scale it back (because I'm sure that would be a bone to pick if it wasn't relegation), they had to change the format. Again, to maintain fiscal responsibility. You all can't have it both ways.
It's a case of if it's not one thing it's another and not everyone is going to be happy.
I personally think the CCA should cut out giving people the travel cost, hotel cost, per diem. Make the provincial/territorial association responsible...or get there yourself. I know one thing is for sure...if you said I could play even just one game in the brier, only thing is, I have to pay my own way...I'm sure as heck finding a way to pay for that.
Too many of the teams view the Brier or the Scotties as an all inclusive trip - especially the ones that seem to land there every year...and I'm not talking about the ones that are there to win, like legit have a chance at winning - they aren't there to party, they're there to win and that's what needs to stay in this sport. A lot of the teams like PEI or NL that send the same weak team every year know they don't have a shot in heck, so they view it as a trip. And that's why I think relegation is a good thing. It's going to force the traditionally weaker provinces to get better just to make the big show. It's no longer party time with the boys. Sorry PEI.
You are 100% correct about the CCA/Own the podium funding etc. People who don' realize this may as well stop discussing this topic. It was not a question of if the CCA should allow provinces and territories it was a simple case of don't allow= no funding.
I'll give you a classic case of why relegation/free ride makes sense. I'll leave out the names to protect the innocent. We were at a national championship and met a team member competing from a northern province, the gentleman could not wait to share how he had played this same team in the MCA Bonspiel just a few years earlier................with his club team. Now here he was competing for a national title and how neat that was, although I'm not sure we thought it was as neat at the time. If he were still in Manitoba I can assure you he would have still been playing for a club team. I'm not against a a national event because there is a heck of a lot of great things about it, but the standards of play should be at a level as to not diminish the championship IMHO
Last edited by Borough Boy on 01-22-15 at 03:50PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-22-15 03:58PM |
|
peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
Re: Has Team Canada Served Its Purpose?
quote: Originally posted by Jimbobogie
We now have a situation in which the "National" championship is "National" in name only.
This is total BS. Every team in Canada has the opportunity to try and qualify for the national championship through playdowns (which is more than can be said about the situation before, where if you happened to be from Nunavut, you were out of luck). As long as this remains the case, it is a "National" championship.
Those against team Canada almost always mischaracterize the views of those for it. No one (as far as I can tell) wants the Brier/Scotties to be just like another Slam. Sure, we want the field to be strong (why wouldn't we?), but we still want province to battle province. Team Canada simply adds one more strong team to the mix, and it hasn't diminished the Scotties in any way.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
01-22-15 04:10PM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Just an aside-anybody care to bet that the first rink to represent Nunavut will be skipped by a man named "Morris"?
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
|
All times are GMT. The time now is . |
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|