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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
1. zones, regions and provincials need to be held on consistant ice. It doesn't have to have huge curl, but it needs to be reasonaby readable.

2. Teams that want to get through zones, regions and provincials would be smart to play a few events on club ice. I think Tea Howard has forgotten how to play on less than perfect ice and it cost them two years in a row. The challenge round will not be a gimme.

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Last edited by CURLING NUTS on 01-07-15 at 05:22PM

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What I am reading is that ALL CURLING CLUBS need education on conditioning rocks. What are the benefits (more curl and more enjoyment) and what are the consequences (life of rocks and replacement costs). This is where Canada Curling Stone should be able to provide clubs with this information. I know my home club (Oakville Curling Club) bought new rocks 6-7 years ago and spent about $80K. They still condition those rocks 2-3 times a year to make sure the membership has the enjoyment of rocks that curl.
The fact that Richie indicated that the membership would not allow the ice maker to condition the rocks tells me that either more information is required or that due to financial limitations they do not want to touch their rocks in fear of wearing them out. Difficult to comment here.
To the naysayers out there that say the ice was the same for both teams. Yes it was. My only comparisons would be would Sydney Crosby be the same player if he had to play on slush each week. Or if a major league pitcher who had an arsenal of pitches (i.e..#1 2014 pitcher Clayton Kershaw - LAD) was told he could only throw fastballs and change ups......no curve balls, no sinkers, no splitters etc. My question is, how good would he be? That is the comparison when the ice has no curl.
Bottom line is, the average curling club needs more education on conditioning(sanding) rocks.

Cheers

Tet

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quote:

---

Originally posted by chubb
What I am reading is that ALL CURLING CLUBS need education on conditioning rocks. What are the benefits (more curl and more enjoyment) and what are the consequences (life of rocks and replacement costs). This is where Canada Curling Stone should be able to provide clubs with this information. I know my home club (Oakville Curling Club) bought new rocks 6-7 years ago and spent about $80K. They still condition those rocks 2-3 times a year to make sure the membership has the enjoyment of rocks that curl.
The fact that Richie indicated that the membership would not allow the ice maker to condition the rocks tells me that either more information is required or that due to financial limitations they do not want to touch their rocks in fear of wearing them out. Difficult to comment here.
To the naysayers out there that say the ice was the same for both teams. Yes it was. My only comparisons would be would Sydney Crosby be the same player if he had to play on slush each week. Or if a major league pitcher who had an arsenal of pitches (i.e..#1 2014 pitcher Clayton Kershaw - LAD) was told he could only throw fastballs and change ups......no curve balls, no sinkers, no splitters etc. My question is, how good would he be? That is the comparison when the ice has no curl.
Bottom line is, the average curling club needs more education on conditioning(sanding) rocks.


And just a bit further, if those clubs can't or don't wish to adhere to a standard of curling ice or rocks that bring out the best in all curlers...that club should not be able to host the event. This is where the OCA comes into play. That should be their mandate. That's what they are there for. This isn't brain surgery.

Cheers

Tet

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shawzy


Different? Yes. Fundamentally? No. You still have to get your rock closest to the button. The change is the means by which you can get your rock there. The goal is still the same and you still have to execute.

This is my core point and what you are failing to understand. You are arguing as if I am saying that top curlers should be able to make triple-angle-runbacks on any ice regardless of condition. That is a mistake. My argument is simply that the reputed better team still has the better odds of executing and if they don't execute then they don't deserve to win (regardless of the ice in play).

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Last edited by Nine Ender on 01-08-15 at 02:28AM

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good post, nine ender

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Just released: Around The House Podcast with Richard Hart to discuss his comments in this thread and other topics.

http://curling.libsyn.com/

Subscribe on iTunes or from your favorite Podcasting App.

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quote:

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Originally posted by chubb
What I am reading is that ALL CURLING CLUBS need education on conditioning rocks ...

Cheers

Tet

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Solution:

1) Compensate clubs/ice maker for hosting zones/regionals using fees from playdowns. This will encourage good clubs to give up some club ice time to host and will encourage ice maker to do a good job.
2) Regionals become two 16 team triples with 8 teams in each region qualfying via points/play-in spiels. Each region qualifies 4 teams (one from A, one from B and two from C). The other 8 teams entered in each region are filled via zone playdowns. Teams that get free pass to regionals still need to pay the fee to play in the playdowns.
4) Challenge spiel is max 16 team double KO for two spots, entries based on ranking system as it is now.
5) Provincials have 12 teams, round robin. 8 teams from region+defending champion+top CRTS leader+2 challenge round teams. If defending champion doesn't want to play, then take top two CTRS leaders. My argument for direct entry for CTRS leaders is that it opens up spots at Regions for up and coming teams and expands provincial field to give more teams more experience.
6)Curling will still sometimes be played on bad ice. There is much luck involved at times. Deal with it and enjoy the challenge, frustration and tip your hat to the winners.
7)Publish the financial info so everyone knows where the entry fees are going, how much clubs are compensated, what good ice makers are being paid and how much is spent on provs.

This is supposed to be fun. It is not complicated. It is not as complex as the climate change problem, although it could be affected by it and we may still get bad ice regardless of efforts to keep playdowns as far away from Gravenhurst as possible. Get it done Mr Chenier.

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quote:

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Originally posted by milobloom
Just released: Around The House Podcast with Richard Hart to discuss his comments in this thread and other topics.

http://curling.libsyn.com/

Subscribe on iTunes or from your favorite Podcasting App.

---

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nine Ender


I'm no ice maker so I'm not sure how practical this is, but players are investing significant time and efforts to get to regional stage and deserve good ice.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by WrongHandle
Solution:

5) Provincials have 12 teams, round robin. 8 teams from region+defending champion+top CRTS leader+2 challenge round teams. If defending champion doesn't want to play, then take top two CTRS leaders. My argument for direct entry for CTRS leaders is that it opens up spots at Regions for up and coming teams and expands provincial field to give more teams more experience.

---

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Epping v.s kean in the A final in region 2. Expected really. Should be a good one between them to decide who goes to provincials

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well that was anticlimatic. steal of 4 by kean in the 3rd and its all but over.

kean goes through A and epping will have a second chance through B

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Epping eked out a win on the 'B' side and on his way to the Tankard along with Kean. Corner will have to go to the Challenge round. Homan's brother Mark lost in the B side of region 1.

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That was an edgy match but epping won. I am glad. Really hope he finally wins ontario.

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That being said im also happy team kean got through. Mark has had a pretty rough time trying to qualify the last 2 years.Got to feel good to get back again. Same can be said for 3 quarters of team epping

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CurlingGeek is making the trip to Bradford for the Men's Challenge Round.

Our first game will be 1pm on Saturday: Team Glenn Howard vs. the winner of Retchless vs. Ross. You'll be able to follow every rock here:

https://games.curlinggeek.com/broadcast/37

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After 10 or more years of reading the annual discussion of the problems with Tankard I finally decided to weigh in online rather then just talk about it in club.

Very happy to see Glenn and his team make the decision to forgo the SKINS and participate in the final stage of qualifying. The ice in Bradford has always been terrific and I expect the competition and level of play to be exceptional. Certainly adding Team Howard to the mix will raise the level of the competition and perhaps inspire some greatness from the other teams like it did of Team Squires and Team Villard last week. Maybe even some local juniors will get a chance to watch one of the best of all time and will take up the journey of excelling at our game.

First, for me this is a sad year since I will not be cheering for Team Howard. I am a fan of Glenn. I was fortunate enough to be about the same age and have enjoyed the frustration/joy of playing against and losing to him many times since we first played in juniors. I think of him as a friend and hope to remain this following my post. To me Glenn is the Nicklaus of our sport. Quiet, always respectful of the game and his opponents and to me he is the best that we have or may ever see play the game (Martin, Stoughton and Werenich were pretty good too ... lol). My wife, my daughter and I have enjoyed countless hours cheering on our Ontario boys (Team Howard) lead by Glenn most of the past decade. We have revelled in his successes on Tour and at the Brier as if they were our own and morned his defeats at the Trials the only prize to elude him.

As I said above I am sad that I will not be cheering for Glenn and his team to win Ontario and represent the province at another Brier this season. The governing bodies in their wisdom have bent to the pressure of some players and have allowed Ontario teams to include players from outside the province in playdowns. This is wrong and should be changed. The Brier is a National Championship, a championship of the provinces and should remain so (all the provinces.....not relegating anyone and with no TEAM CANADA). Anyone who has ever attended a Brier knows what I am discussing and how special this event is to our game and our country. You do not hear yells of "Go MARTIN GO" you hear the call of "ONTARIO" echoed by "ALBERTA" from someone in the hated blue and yellow. Some argue that in order for the Brier to "be the best event in the world" that curling teams now need to go and get the best players from where ever. That if we want the best teams to play they must be allowed to enter with the same teams they compete with throughout the CTRS season. I feel that we have enough of those events, they are called The Grand Slams and that hijacking a national tradition like the Brier is just wrong.

Ok....now on to the other issue, the one that is annually discussed (some say beaten to death) here at the Forums..... thanks Gerry for providing this opportunity. The issue of byes to Tankard and changes to the qualifying system that it is somehow broken and needs a total makeover. Based on the above and for those of you who know me it will likely come as no shock to anyone that I think no byes should exist and adding a CRTS and/or tour spot(s) is not something I think would improve the event or our sport. Last I checked the winner of the World Series does not get a return visit to the Series or even a bye to the divisional playoffs the following season. One of the things I think special is that we all start at the same place every year in this event. Nicklaus/Woods/Palmer never got a bye to the 3rd round of a major and so why do it in our sport. Somehow the best team perhaps of all time has managed to win 9 of the past 10 (or so) so I find little fact in the assertion that the system is not producing the best winner.

Generally the argument(s) I hear goes....

First Myth..... "The event host needs to be able to promote the event using the past champion in order to increase tickets sales, sponsorships and raise local excitement." I think this sounds nice, but the facts dont seem to prove it out. Ticket sales/attendance is way down from the hey days of the 80's and 90's when no guarantee of a past winner was in place. At that time the arenas regularly drew large local crowds throughout the week with out of towner's driving in late in the week and for playoffs. With all games now being available on TV or the internet you no longer see much travel from spectators to fill the arena. Notice that it isnt this years champion being used to promote the event but rather a stock photo of Glenn. Good on the people of Thames Center for taking on the championship.....with or without "the best teams" you can count on my family to make the trip to watch a few games from Ontario's best teams, visit with old friends and drink a few in the patch. Maybe we will get a chance to see the next great players at your event.

Second Myth..... "The best teams should get a bye since they are out playing all season, training harder then anyone else and should not have to be submitted to the conditions and possible upsets on club ice at zones and regions." V.J. didnt get any headstart because he worked harder on the practice tee then the other guys........ Magic or Bird didnt get any quarter on the court because they shot more in practice then anyone. Hey.....its sport guys and sometimes "the best team" does not always win nor should they always win. Some of the best moments from sport and from our game are the huge upsets, Ingram and Moffat beating the odds and winning Tankards in the 90's, McDuff the only Newf to ever win or Dacey making perhaps the greatest come from behind win ever at the Brier or even Bob Weeks buddy Mike Weir (a Canadian and a Leftie for god sake) winning the Masters. None of those things might have happened if those events just seeded the best teams to the finals. If sport was all about "the best" always winning there would be no hope for we Maple Leaf fans. Thank goodness its not that way.......

Third Myth...... "giving these elite teams a bye will Increase participation which is lagging at the zone level." Really, love this one...... Somehow I am told that giving a world class miler a lap on me, making him run 3 laps while I run 4 will encourage me/make me more likely to run in the race. IMO the byes/seeding do the opposite and discourage participation. If increasing participation is the goal, wouldn't I be more likely to enter the event if I had the best chance to maybe win or at least got a chance to play against the best guys. A once in a lifetime, or in this case a once a year opportunity to go out with my buddies and show our game against the best that ever was.....With the advent of the Grand Slams and other invitational events that fill the schedule for those elite teams who chase CTRS points you no longer get that opportunity at your local spiel. The elite teams rarely show at your local club spiel in Port Elgin, Brantford, KW, Sarnia, Whitby, Cookstown, etc... The Tankard playdowns might be the only time you have a chance to match up against the best in the sport.....for a young guy just out of juniors or a bunch of old guys who still think they can play to actually be on the ice and live the dream of beating the best. I think that opportunity to play the greats is good for the sport and only increases the chance of more teams entering. Some of my best memories as a young curler were when we were lucky enough to match up against Savage, Werenich, Howard, Harris, Base (FWJC....lol), Middaugh, Tetley, Hackner and the other legends of the game. We almost always (not always) got pasted on the ice, but we paid our entry and looked forward to playing them straight up and then sitting with them following the game for the stories. All those guys (or most of them....) were terrific at recognizing how important that time was to those "lesser" players who were vital to having a healthy bonspiel. Todays elite teams rarely are around to give that opportunity to the "local talent" that support the clubs spiel. Maybe purses for events would be up from 20 years ago if more local talent could be encouraged to participate regularly.

Steve, if you and the OCA want to increase participation......try cutting the budget somewhere (maybe less training support for the elite teams) and with the savings you could allow teams to enter the playdowns for under $100 or even at no cost at all per team. Do that for a year or two and see if it doesnt increase the number of guys willing to spend a weekend getting hammered in 6 ends by "the best teams".

Okay.....I think I am done.

Hope someone (particularly you Steve Chenier) makes it to the end of this and that it encourages some debate that will improve the game we all love. Failing that feel free to take your shots here publicly or privately at my email jt@golden.net or even stop me in a club and we can share a beer and opinions. I will be at Seniors in Huntsville this weekend and STOH in Penetang all next week.

Good curling all.

John Thompson aka jt
Waterloo

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Unregistered

Last I checked the winner of the World Series does not get a return visit to the Series or even a bye to the divisional playoffs the following season. One of the things I think special is that we all start at the same place every year in this event. Nicklaus/Woods/Palmer never got a bye to the 3rd round of a major and so why do it in our sport. Somehow the best team perhaps of all time has managed to win 9 of the past 10 (or so) so I find little fact in the assertion that the system is not producing the best winner.

---

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I know Howard is good, but it would be nice to have a change. If he's not there, then so be it. Good to have some new faces.

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Monday morning this post wil be quiet because Howard will have made it through, or full ofgnashing of teeth and arguing about qualifying if he doesn't.

Yes, in golf - the top 50/top 10 get invited to a tournament but they have to start on day one. I am on the fence about OCT or CTRS qualifiers. Not sure I even like last year's winner returning. Yes if they win the Brier (or Scotties) - that is a nice reward. In the case of the Scotties - last year's winner Flaxey finished near the bottom and nearly sent Ontario to relegation! But she gets a return to the Provincial Scotties anyway.

Look at the mess that Team Canada has got the Brier into - they had to recruit a new skip and one of the players was planning to retire and seems to me doesn't really want to play competitively anymore. No more Team Canada is definately something I agree with.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Unregistered
After 10 or more years of reading the annual discussion of the problems with Tankard I finally decided to weigh in online rather then just talk about it in club.

Very happy to see Glenn and his team make the decision to forgo the SKINS and participate in the final stage of qualifying. The ice in Bradford has always been terrific and I expect the competition and level of play to be exceptional. Certainly adding Team Howard to the mix will raise the level of the competition and perhaps inspire some greatness from the other teams like it did of Team Squires and Team Villard last week. Maybe even some local juniors will get a chance to watch one of the best of all time and will take up the journey of excelling at our game.

First, for me this is a sad year since I will not be cheering for Team Howard. I am a fan of Glenn. I was fortunate enough to be about the same age and have enjoyed the frustration/joy of playing against and losing to him many times since we first played in juniors. I think of him as a friend and hope to remain this following my post. To me Glenn is the Nicklaus of our sport. Quiet, always respectful of the game and his opponents and to me he is the best that we have or may ever see play the game (Martin, Stoughton and Werenich were pretty good too ... lol). My wife, my daughter and I have enjoyed countless hours cheering on our Ontario boys (Team Howard) lead by Glenn most of the past decade. We have revelled in his successes on Tour and at the Brier as if they were our own and morned his defeats at the Trials the only prize to elude him.

As I said above I am sad that I will not be cheering for Glenn and his team to win Ontario and represent the province at another Brier this season. The governing bodies in their wisdom have bent to the pressure of some players and have allowed Ontario teams to include players from outside the province in playdowns. This is wrong and should be changed. The Brier is a National Championship, a championship of the provinces and should remain so (all the provinces.....not relegating anyone and with no TEAM CANADA). Anyone who has ever attended a Brier knows what I am discussing and how special this event is to our game and our country. You do not hear yells of "Go MARTIN GO" you hear the call of "ONTARIO" echoed by "ALBERTA" from someone in the hated blue and yellow. Some argue that in order for the Brier to "be the best event in the world" that curling teams now need to go and get the best players from where ever. That if we want the best teams to play they must be allowed to enter with the same teams they compete with throughout the CTRS season. I feel that we have enough of those events, they are called The Grand Slams and that hijacking a national tradition like the Brier is just wrong.

Ok....now on to the other issue, the one that is annually discussed (some say beaten to death) here at the Forums..... thanks Gerry for providing this opportunity. The issue of byes to Tankard and changes to the qualifying system that it is somehow broken and needs a total makeover. Based on the above and for those of you who know me it will likely come as no shock to anyone that I think no byes should exist and adding a CRTS and/or tour spot(s) is not something I think would improve the event or our sport. Last I checked the winner of the World Series does not get a return visit to the Series or even a bye to the divisional playoffs the following season. One of the things I think special is that we all start at the same place every year in this event. Nicklaus/Woods/Palmer never got a bye to the 3rd round of a major and so why do it in our sport. Somehow the best team perhaps of all time has managed to win 9 of the past 10 (or so) so I find little fact in the assertion that the system is not producing the best winner.

Generally the argument(s) I hear goes....

First Myth..... "The event host needs to be able to promote the event using the past champion in order to increase tickets sales, sponsorships and raise local excitement." I think this sounds nice, but the facts dont seem to prove it out. Ticket sales/attendance is way down from the hey days of the 80's and 90's when no guarantee of a past winner was in place. At that time the arenas regularly drew large local crowds throughout the week with out of towner's driving in late in the week and for playoffs. With all games now being available on TV or the internet you no longer see much travel from spectators to fill the arena. Notice that it isnt this years champion being used to promote the event but rather a stock photo of Glenn. Good on the people of Thames Center for taking on the championship.....with or without "the best teams" you can count on my family to make the trip to watch a few games from Ontario's best teams, visit with old friends and drink a few in the patch. Maybe we will get a chance to see the next great players at your event.

Second Myth..... "The best teams should get a bye since they are out playing all season, training harder then anyone else and should not have to be submitted to the conditions and possible upsets on club ice at zones and regions." V.J. didnt get any headstart because he worked harder on the practice tee then the other guys........ Magic or Bird didnt get any quarter on the court because they shot more in practice then anyone. Hey.....its sport guys and sometimes "the best team" does not always win nor should they always win. Some of the best moments from sport and from our game are the huge upsets, Ingram and Moffat beating the odds and winning Tankards in the 90's, McDuff the only Newf to ever win or Dacey making perhaps the greatest come from behind win ever at the Brier or even Bob Weeks buddy Mike Weir (a Canadian and a Leftie for god sake) winning the Masters. None of those things might have happened if those events just seeded the best teams to the finals. If sport was all about "the best" always winning there would be no hope for we Maple Leaf fans. Thank goodness its not that way.......

Third Myth...... "giving these elite teams a bye will Increase participation which is lagging at the zone level." Really, love this one...... Somehow I am told that giving a world class miler a lap on me, making him run 3 laps while I run 4 will encourage me/make me more likely to run in the race. IMO the byes/seeding do the opposite and discourage participation. If increasing participation is the goal, wouldn't I be more likely to enter the event if I had the best chance to maybe win or at least got a chance to play against the best guys. A once in a lifetime, or in this case a once a year opportunity to go out with my buddies and show our game against the best that ever was.....With the advent of the Grand Slams and other invitational events that fill the schedule for those elite teams who chase CTRS points you no longer get that opportunity at your local spiel. The elite teams rarely show at your local club spiel in Port Elgin, Brantford, KW, Sarnia, Whitby, Cookstown, etc... The Tankard playdowns might be the only time you have a chance to match up against the best in the sport.....for a young guy just out of juniors or a bunch of old guys who still think they can play to actually be on the ice and live the dream of beating the best. I think that opportunity to play the greats is good for the sport and only increases the chance of more teams entering. Some of my best memories as a young curler were when we were lucky enough to match up against Savage, Werenich, Howard, Harris, Base (FWJC....lol), Middaugh, Tetley, Hackner and the other legends of the game. We almost always (not always) got pasted on the ice, but we paid our entry and looked forward to playing them straight up and then sitting with them following the game for the stories. All those guys (or most of them....) were terrific at recognizing how important that time was to those "lesser" players who were vital to having a healthy bonspiel. Todays elite teams rarely are around to give that opportunity to the "local talent" that support the clubs spiel. Maybe purses for events would be up from 20 years ago if more local talent could be encouraged to participate regularly.

Steve, if you and the OCA want to increase participation......try cutting the budget somewhere (maybe less training support for the elite teams) and with the savings you could allow teams to enter the playdowns for under $100 or even at no cost at all per team. Do that for a year or two and see if it doesnt increase the number of guys willing to spend a weekend getting hammered in 6 ends by "the best teams".

Okay.....I think I am done.

Hope someone (particularly you Steve Chenier) makes it to the end of this and that it encourages some debate that will improve the game we all love. Failing that feel free to take your shots here publicly or privately at my email jt@golden.net or even stop me in a club and we can share a beer and opinions. I will be at Seniors in Huntsville this weekend and STOH in Penetang all next week.

Good curling all.

John Thompson aka jt
Waterloo

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Great post.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Unregistered

Steve, if you and the OCA want to increase participation......try cutting the budget somewhere (maybe less training support for the elite teams) and with the savings you could allow teams to enter the playdowns for under $100 or even at no cost at all per team. Do that for a year or two and see if it doesnt increase the number of guys willing to spend a weekend getting hammered in 6 ends by "the best teams".


I agree, bring he entry fee in line with the other events. For $30.00 each, I'm willing to get my butt kicked for two games by the big boys, for the experience. For $60.00 each I'm entering a spiel with three games guaranteed, and meals provided.

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Yep, that's the sentiment shared my curling gals, $30 ok to play 2 games against former Scotties champs but would rather pay $60 for a bonspiel. I am also finding a reluctance to try and compete...lately the only one who is eager to compete in OCA amongst my friends is 78 & regularly curls 3x a days at lead! Women half her age moan & groan about how "tough" the play downs are. Maybe we as a society are becoming wimpier.

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