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| 04-04-14 09:06PM |
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CurlingRH
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 27 |
Re: Agree
quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
100% Agree. If one team is clear of the rest in the round robin they should get the bye right to final. There has to be a reward for being the best all week other than just a 2nd chance if they lose the 1-2 game.
The problem comes when you don't have a clear winner in the round-robin. Do you play a 1-2 game (under the guise of a tiebreaker) or do you award a finals berth based solely on criteria?
Look at this year's Brier. Three teams tied for first at 9-2, and it came down to cumulative pre-game draws to the button. Awarding an auto-berth to the final based on that wouldn't get my vote.
I think Curling Nuts is correct in identifying TV as the primary force behind the status quo. TV wants a fixed schedule so they can reliably sell their ads. When you're playing the bills, you get a lot of say in how things operate, and that's certainly not going to change.
This past year has been interesting in that the Trials, the Olympics and the Nationals/Worlds employed three different playoff systems. In all seven tournaments to date, the final game has featured 1 vs. 2. The first place team won four of seven. Jacobs finished 2nd at the Olympics and won gold. Koe finished "second" (tied for first) and won the Brier and Feltscher finished 2nd and won the Women's Worlds.
That suggests to me that the format doesn't really matter. We will almost always end up with a 1-2 final.
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| 04-04-14 10:07PM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
Re: Re: Agree
quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
but there is. Not only do they get a second chance they get hammer and choice of rocks
It would be a massive disadvantage for the team that got a bye right to the final. Sitting around for possibly 2 days with no real matches?
that could spell disaster for the team that got the bye
You just played for a week, beat your brains out in a 12 +/- team round robin and came out the clear winner. You maybe even went undefeated. There has to be a more substantial reward other than last rock and colour. I would take my chances in the final on two days rest while the other teams played down for the opportunity to play you in the final. I don't see any disaster in that formula.
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| 04-04-14 10:18PM |
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murphyj87
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 207 |
Re: Re: Re: Agree
quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
I would take my chances in the final on two days rest while the other teams played down for the opportunity to play you in the final. I don't see any disaster in that formula.
So you're ok with the first place team losing to a semi final winner with momentum in a one game winner-take-all game instead of the first place team having a second chance if they have one bad game??
The Page Playoff system was instituted because of the number of first place teams with a bye to the final which had lost in that final on a regular basis when just three teams made the playoffs, 2 vs 3 against 1 in the final, and 1 lost the final more often than not.
Last edited by murphyj87 on 04-04-14 at 10:30PM
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| 04-04-14 10:46PM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Agree
quote:
Originally posted by murphyj87
So you're ok with the first place team losing to a semi final winner with momentum in a one game winner-take-all game instead of the first place team having a second chance if they have one bad game??
The Page Playoff system was instituted because of the number of first place teams with a bye to the final which had lost in that final on a regular basis when just three teams made the playoffs, 2 vs 3 against 1 in the final, and 1 lost the final more often than not.
I beg to differ. The Page Playoff wasn't instituted solely because of the number of first place teams with a bye to the final... who subsequently lost that final. Without regard to the round robin winner, it was instituted because the CCA and others wanted an extra game to show case on TV. If you truly want equity, go back to the old way of running playoffs. 3 teams in the final plus tie breakers. I submit that the 4th place team shouldn't even gain a playoff berth. Eg. A 6-5 record shouldn't get a sniff at the playoffs.
Using Ontario as an example in the Provincials, that system worked well for many, many years and almost without exception the strongest team emerged at the end.
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| 04-04-14 10:55PM |
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murphyj87
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 207 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Agree
quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
I beg to differ. The Page Playoff wasn't instituted solely because of the number of first place teams with a bye to the final... who subsequently lost that final. Without regard to the round robin winner, it was instituted because the CCA and others wanted an extra game to show case on TV. If you truly want equity, go back to the old way of running playoffs. 3 teams in the final plus tie breakers. I submit that the 4th place team shouldn't even gain a playoff berth. Eg. A 6-5 record shouldn't get a sniff at the playoffs.
Using Ontario as an example in the Provincials, that system worked well for many, many years and almost without exception the strongest team emerged at the end.
So why not go back to the pre-1980 Brier format when the round robin winner won the Brier outright and the only time there was a playoff was when there was a first place tie, as in 1961?
Maybe 12 end games with corn brooms, as it was when I started in mens, would be a good retro step too
Last edited by murphyj87 on 04-04-14 at 10:58PM
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| 04-04-14 11:29PM |
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Unregistered
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Agree
quote:
Originally posted by murphyj87
So why not go back to the pre-1980 Brier format when the round robin winner won the Brier outright and the only time there was a playoff was when there was a first place tie, as in 1961?
Maybe 12 end games with corn brooms, as it was when I started in mens, would be a good retro step too
So did I, with the odd extra end thrown in as well! I still think the top 3 playoff is/was a good system. A team with a mediocre record should not be in a playoff. Sometimes with the occurrence of tie breakers in the Page playoff, 7 or 8 teams are still in the fray at the end of the round robin. You are being awarded for mediocrity. Just saying.....
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| 04-04-14 11:38PM |
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wsj28
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 60 |
quote:
Originally posted by misty1
Again you complain about no tv coverage for non Canada games and again ill remind you that they never cover non Canadian games and they more than likely never will. The average viewer is your casual fan and the casual fan does not want to watch a game not involving Canada. Id bet that even most of the dedicated curling fans don't want to
Whats been awful is that TSN will broadcast a game at 6:00 in the morning but when there's a game Canada is in at 8:00 at night Canadian team they cant get it on TV. basketball or hockey..even darts take precedence.
From what was explained to me in Saint John it costs a helluva lot more money to show the games in primetime in Canada (MORNING GAMES IN CHINA) then it does to show them in the early morning (NIGHT GAMES IN CHINA) we are talking hundreds of thousands of extra $$$ for the satelite time.
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| 04-04-14 11:43PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Is this the least watched World Championship ever? Nobody in the stands, poor TV coverage, awful draw times for North America viewers. Maybe viewership in Europe is better? But not much viewing in US/Canada.
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| 04-05-14 12:31AM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Another boring curling match. FGZ was a huge improvement but it seems that no longer helps. What can be done to keep some rocks in play and require shots other than hit after hit after hit?
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| 04-05-14 01:46AM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Huge miss by Koe. Norway low on time but can hit and save time now rather than trying to build a 2
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| 04-05-14 01:49AM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
Huge miss by Koe. Norway low on time but can hit and save time now rather than trying to build a 2
the miss that cost them was Pat's. Then Ulsrud made a couple pistols.
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| 04-05-14 02:01AM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Not sure what happened on Simmons rock -- looked like he threw it ok. But even with that miss, Koe still had draw for 2, a shot he rarely misses. Expect to see rematch for the title. Ulsrud has beaten Koe twice this week -- not easy to do that 3 times.
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| 04-05-14 05:03AM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
Re: Re: Agree
quote:
Originally posted by CurlingRH
This past year has been interesting in that the Trials, the Olympics and the Nationals/Worlds employed three different playoff systems. In all seven tournaments to date, the final game has featured 1 vs. 2. The first place team won four of seven. Jacobs finished 2nd at the Olympics and won gold. Koe finished "second" (tied for first) and won the Brier and Feltscher finished 2nd and won the Women's Worlds.
That suggests to me that the format doesn't really matter. We will almost always end up with a 1-2 final.
None of the Men's Trials, Men's Olympics or the Scotties had 1 vs. 2 finals.
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| 04-05-14 05:06AM |
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peteski
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 631 |
quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
Is this the least watched World Championship ever? Nobody in the stands, poor TV coverage, awful draw times for North America viewers. Maybe viewership in Europe is better? But not much viewing in US/Canada.
It seemed to me like there has been a decent amount of people in the stands, particularly when China was playing.
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| 04-05-14 07:01AM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
Arena sits about 17,000 people, so it's always going to look empty. From what I saw, looks like there were between 1000 and 1500 people there for the Page1v2 game and Semifinal each, and pretty decent crowds for the Round Robin games especially when China was playing.
For today's games, it didn't look good on TV, but almost all the people were sitting on the other side of the arena, opposite side the camera was pointing.
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| 04-05-14 07:56AM |
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Unregistered
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quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
Not sure what happened on Simmons rock -- looked like he threw it ok. But even with that miss, Koe still had draw for 2, a shot he rarely misses. Expect to see rematch for the title. Ulsrud has beaten Koe twice this week -- not easy to do that 3 times.
Well now he doesn't have to worry about it because Sweden took care of them in the semi.
great game by Sweden, poor game by Canada. Sweden was in control form the get go.
ulsrud will never have a better chance than this to win gold. That being said this young Swedish team is on a 6 game hot streak and will be very hard to subdue.
koe will face a great Switzerland team and try not to go 0-3 in the playoffs.
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| 04-05-14 08:22AM |
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Unregistered
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Canada has played well , percentages very high and most misses due to the crappy ice conditions that haunt the worlds .... Have said many times i would pass on th worlds if i won the brier ... Been saying it for 50 years actually. ...
If Nic Edin moves to b.c. They can play the worlds without canada. He must be shaking his head wondering why he isnt there .... This smorgasbord of trading players and abandoning teams must look a little scary to the pros.... Are ben and marc asking themselves if they are doing the right thing now ? Kind of a waste of 3 years if the koreans or other pros from the other countries pull off a gold medal at the olympics .... Not sure why anyone wouldnt want to play for Martin, Howard, or Stoughton ... Especially after they took you to the many podiums.. Laing too. .. Must be wondering if his brain is working...
So far Gushue team is the class act. ... Woulda guessed ...theres the kiss of death. ... I used to really like Cotter, lost a bit when he dumped Jason for the other guy
We are about 2 years from Canadian teams not winning the slams or being in the playoffs ....
The best thing about 2014 was Russ and Vic's announcing, huge improvement losing the continual chatter and criticism of a couple of the announcers..
Should be a good final .. Was in Vancouver when the bozos and drunks were hassaling Ulsrud while he shot in the 9th end ... He showed class, be nice if he gets gold. From now on its going to be twenty five year olds winning - so this is his best chance and i hope he doesnt get any bad breaks tonight... I like Oscar too ... Its great if he wins too
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| 04-05-14 08:37AM |
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doubletakeout
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 480 |
rolling my eyes HARD at the incoherent rambling above. what the heck are you even talking about?
glad we won't ever have the problem of you winning the brier and deciding to... not represent canada at the worlds? good lord.
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| 04-05-14 08:38AM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
Re: Re: Re: Agree
quote:
Originally posted by peteski
None of the Men's Trials, Men's Olympics or the Scotties had 1 vs. 2 finals.
And now the worlds...
Last edited by CURLING NUTS on 04-05-14 at 08:40AM
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| 04-05-14 09:20AM |
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Unregistered
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quote:
Originally posted by doubletakeout
rolling my eyes HARD at the incoherent rambling above. what the heck are you even talking about?
glad we won't ever have the problem of you winning the brier and deciding to... not represent canada at the worlds? good lord.
Lol. Dont be hard on yourself , some of my relatives in the services werent the brightest lights in the chandelier either.......
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| 04-05-14 10:03AM |
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CurlingRH
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 27 |
Re: Re: Re: Agree
quote:
Originally posted by peteski
None of the Men's Trials, Men's Olympics or the Scotties had 1 vs. 2 finals.
.
Right you are ... my bad. It just proves that an aging memory is never a good substitute for proper research, particularly on a Friday evening.
The question at hand is whether the page playoff system sufficiently rewards the round-robin winner, or whether No. 1 should go directly to the final. My conclusion is "it doesn't matter", because No. 1 gets there almost all the time, regardless of the hoops they have to jump through along the way.
Ulsrud makes 7 of 8 No. 1's in the finals this year. The only exception was Edin at the Olympics. 7 out of 8 is mission accomplished in my books. Your No. 1 seed is in the finals.
As to the "also-rans", the exceptions to No. 2 being the opponent are No. 3 at the Men's Trials (Morris beat No. 2 Martin in the semi), No. 4 at the Men's Olympics (Murdoch beat No. 1 Edin in the sudden-death semi), No. 3 at the Scotties (Sweeting beat No. 2 Carey in the semi) and now, No. 4 at the Men's Worlds. In other words, half the time No. 2 gets to the final, the other half, a lower seed gets hot at the right time.
The only real upset in the seven tournament finals to date was in the Women's Worlds (a 1 vs. 2 game). The choice of playoff format was a non-factor in the "validity" of any of the tournament results.
My other point was that curling is a TV sport. Without TV, curling in Canada is irreparably damaged. A 1-2 game seems like a pretty small price to pay, even for the diminished coverage of this particular tournament.
Again, my apologies for the shoddy research.
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| 04-05-14 10:07AM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
Canada has played well , percentages very high and most misses due to the crappy ice conditions that haunt the worlds .... Have said many times i would pass on th worlds if i won the brier ... Been saying it for 50 years actually. ...
If Nic Edin moves to b.c. They can play the worlds without canada. He must be shaking his head wondering why he isnt there .... This smorgasbord of trading players and abandoning teams must look a little scary to the pros.... Are ben and marc asking themselves if they are doing the right thing now ? Kind of a waste of 3 years if the koreans or other pros from the other countries pull off a gold medal at the olympics .... Not sure why anyone wouldnt want to play for Martin, Howard, or Stoughton ... Especially after they took you to the many podiums.. Laing too. .. Must be wondering if his brain is working...
So far Gushue team is the class act. ... Woulda guessed ...theres the kiss of death. ... I used to really like Cotter, lost a bit when he dumped Jason for the other guy
We are about 2 years from Canadian teams not winning the slams or being in the playoffs ....
The best thing about 2014 was Russ and Vic's announcing, huge improvement losing the continual chatter and criticism of a couple of the announcers..
Should be a good final .. Was in Vancouver when the bozos and drunks were hassaling Ulsrud while he shot in the 9th end ... He showed class, be nice if he gets gold. From now on its going to be twenty five year olds winning - so this is his best chance and i hope he doesnt get any bad breaks tonight... I like Oscar too ... Its great if he wins too
This appears to be written in parts so ill respond in parts
1. I don't know why you'd pass on the worlds. The whole point of winning the brier is to have to chance to represent your country at the worlds. why even go to the brier if you wont go to worlds?
have to say that the ice isn't always this bad either. blame the Chinese morons who gave hans water contaminated with oil to use of the sheets.
2. I don't even know what point your trying to make. why would edin move to BC? and yeah players are changing teams, so what.
3. what does brad gushue have to do with anything? he's brought in players from so many different provinces its not even funny so how does that make him the class act?
4. not sure how you came to this conclusion. Canadian teams still dominate the slams, its rare to see international teams on the mens side anyway make it past the QF. It would be a huge jump to make in a very short time period
5. agree with you on the final. should be a great one. one of the very best currently against someone who im sure will win a world championship..maybe more
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| 04-05-14 11:12AM |
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Unregistered
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Ugh, no gold medal for Canada. 
I still can't believe they only scored one in the 9th end of the 1 vs 2 game, that was crushing.
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| 04-05-14 11:32AM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Agree with ML that the boys look like they have had enough of each other -- Koe especially seems to have distanced himself from team.
But disagree with ML about this game vs JJ game. Swedes made this a fun game to watch. After scoring an early 4, most teams likely would have just kept things clean but Swedes kept rocks in play. Some very interesting ends.
Final could be a fun game to watch.
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CurlingZone > Chat Forums > Tours, Events and Major Championships > Playdowns > 2014 Mens World Championship
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