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01-30-19 02:25PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
quote: Originally posted by nelski
Charley Thomas and Adam Casey are together now? and in Ontario? Manalive - those two move around. PEI SK AB ON - have I missed any?
Newfoundland for Casey
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01-30-19 02:34PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
Zeitgeist...really
quote: Originally posted by SooCurler
Telling me I'm not seeing your point of view then appealing to nostalgia and absurdity isn't going to convince me. Its a rather lacking argument and honestly a logical fallacy.
With regards to having provincial play downs in the past is proof of intention of finding a best province is also lacking. Laws and rules are born out of the time they are needed. Original residency rules also were developed in a time when travel and communication were much reduced compared to now. Driving forces would have been to keep people in their provinces to keep talent spread out as the number of superstar players was much lower. Associations like Saskatchewan and Northern Ontario would want to hold onto their teams rather than let them go elsewhere. Where you see a top down intention I see a bottom up intention. Ultimately, an appeal to original intent and history needs to be sidelined. As its built purely on the past and opinions. No different than a strict constitutionalism trying to interpret the 2nd US Amendment.
More realistically, as with any law or rule the social zeitgeist is generally the driving factor. As it stands now, in the way the sport has evolved. The Brier and STOH are a national championship designed to find the best teams in Canada. That is how they are viewed. Residency rules are archaic and hindering competition. Other than an appeal to nostalgia as to why they are good and removing them honestly cannot be linked to any negative forces in curling. And can arguably be linked to positive forces. I.e. diversifying competition in provinces, creating a competitive homogenization and improving the quality of play across the board from lower tier teams to upper tier teams. Market forces (travel costs, competition level) will keep most of it in check. You won't have people running all over Canada to compete and the majority of teams will have 2 or more players whose primary residence is in the province they are competing in. Which is happening NOW anyways and proves my point. Hence, when I have said that the rules are not being followed now and the sky isn't falling (well other than apparently upsetting your sensibilities).
Taking that paragraph as a whole, I have a great deal of trouble seeing an argument from you that at all has approached my points regarding the current de facto state of residency rules nor any arguments to suggest that there will be rampant polarization of competitiveness in the Country. And finally, to your appeal to absurdity. Curlers are already getting out to support teams in their province that have mixed residency. People support the players and personalities as much as they support where they are from. There are plenty of examples (John Morris) of people who have transplanted themselves and been fully supported. So while I dismissed the appeal out of hand, I don't even think it stands up under even the slightest scrutiny.
Looks like someone dusted of the old thesaurus. This topic was discussed many times and it appears divided for and against about equal. I'm for keeping the Brier and Scotties as they are. Let the 10 or so professional teams have their 7 slams a year. Let them be from 4 different provinces, who cares, but not eligible for the Brier or Scotties. Just my opinion.
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01-31-19 07:25AM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
quote: Originally posted by SooCurler
Telling me I'm not seeing your point of view then appealing to nostalgia and absurdity isn't going to convince me. Its a rather lacking argument and honestly a logical fallacy.
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........................................... Etc., etc.
As previously stated - you see only what your agenda permits you to see.
I'm not attempting to convince you - I can clearly see that you're incapable of seeing or considering anything but that which is consistent with and supportive of your agenda.
This bit, though, is priceless...
"Ultimately, an appeal to original intent and history needs to be sidelined. As its built purely on the past and opinions. No different than a strict constitutionalism trying to interpret the 2nd US Amendment."
The amazing thing is that you seem to be taking yourself seriously...
__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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01-31-19 07:29AM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
quote: Originally posted by Deliverer
I advocate no residency rules whatsoever for Canadian teams which participate in any curling event with the exception of teams which participate in the Brier or Scotties. For those teams I would seriously strengthen the existing residential rules by no longer offering or providing any of the exemptions or exceptions to curlers for matters related to location, work, education, proximity to borders etc., etc. Additionally, the winners of these two event would no longer represent Canada at the World's Men's or Women's. Instead I'd send the winners of the Canada Cup of Curling to the Worlds; the winners of the Olympic Trials to the Olympics. Providing it doesn't open up another can of worms, consideration could be given towards offering the Brier and Scotties winners an automatic entry into another major event such as The Player's or the Humpty's Champion Cup.
Not a horrible idea... but it would very likely kill off the Brier and Scotties within 5 years of implementation.
__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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01-31-19 10:43AM |
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SooCurler
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2015
Location:
Posts: 46 |
So no responses at all just ad hominem attacks from two people.
Respectful discourse to actually discuss points of view based on facts and logic apparently don't belong on these forums.
The comment about strict constitutionalism directly informs my comment about the social zeitgeist. I.E. the morals and social perceptions of the here and now are far more important than the morals and social perceptions of the past. The 2nd amendment is a clear example of this.
But you want to tell me I'm "priceless" and a fool rather than having respectful discussion. Bravo.
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01-31-19 01:44PM |
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Ajay
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 570 |
Soocurler. No response, your dissertation was way above my comprehension level as a simple curling loving senior.
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01-31-19 03:59PM |
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Curlwalker
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 109 |
Pro Brier Scotties
I can understand the arguments for having either tougher or no requirements for teams in the Brier and Scotties but have a couple of concerns. The Brier and Scotties are still the events with the most attendance, revenue generation and tv audience I believe. We should be careful not to kill them too easily. The current formula allows "weaker" provinces to send a team. If this were not the case where would the Gushue team have made an impact? Or Colleen Jones? To me they and others came through the system that allowed them to blossom in an area of the country traditionally perhaps weak and then display their talents at a national level, which in turn gets them potential sponsorship and ability to play the slams etc.
BTW the loudest crowd noise and excitement lately came from Gushue winning in his home province.
I think the Brier and Scotties are the breeding ground of Canadian champions and the slams are the reward for success in provincial and national playdowns.
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01-31-19 06:01PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
Re: Pro Brier Scotties
quote: Originally posted by Curlwalker
I think the Brier and Scotties are the breeding ground of Canadian champions and the slams are the reward for success in provincial and national playdowns. [/B]
100% agree with above statement
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01-31-19 06:12PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
soo
I'm confused. What does U.S. 2nd amendment for the right to bear arms have to do with curling in Canada. Re-reading your posts it's obvious you're highly educated and well spoken, but, it seems as though you're standing at the podium looking down on the rest of us. Just because you can write a 5 paragraph response, doesn't mean you are any more correct than the rest of us.
I would be willing to wager if you poll the fans who are actually sitting in the seats at the Scotties and the Brier, if they would like to see no provinces but just the top 10 CTRS teams, it would be a resounding NO. Who's going to travel across the country knowing nobody from their province is even there. It would be echos in the arena unless it's hosted in AB or MB. It would be the death of curling for 90% of fans. You can only watch the same teams over and over on TV so many times.
Last edited by IN-OFF-FOR-2 on 01-31-19 at 06:23PM
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01-31-19 07:28PM |
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Deliverer
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 471 |
quote: Originally posted by On The Nose
Not a horrible idea... but it would very likely kill off the Brier and Scotties within 5 years of implementation.
I agree. And perhaps a projected shelf life of even 5 years could prove to be slightly optimistic!
Hopefully not, but that does not mean those rules have to be cast in stone and could not be readily altered to help ensure "success" ( whatever that is).
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01-31-19 09:01PM |
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Deliverer
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 471 |
" I think the Brier and Scotties are the breeding ground of Canadian champions and the slams are the reward for success ..." Curlwalker
Not much doubt about that.
I find it really ironical, however, that you reference Gushue in this context because he is one of two* Canadian curlers to accomplish this IN REVERSE!!!
That is, instead of winning the Brier and going forward from there, he won Olympic gold in 2006 and subsequently rattled off nine Grand Slams prior to winning the Brier in 2017.
* Mark Nichols is the other curler.
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02-01-19 12:39AM |
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Gallan
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 23 |
New idea
One idea I like is to treat "residency" like countries do. If you are born in a province, you get to play for that province no matter where you live. Like Jamie Sinclair going to play in the US because she was born there but then raised in Ottawa and developed all her curling skills in Ottawa. Face it, Homan developed all her skill in Ontario. If she has moved to Alberta due to life/family issues, so be it - she should still be able to represent Ontario in the Scotties.
Times they are a changing, if you don't move with them, then they pass you by...
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02-01-19 08:21AM |
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Curlwalker
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 109 |
Gushue
I referred to Gushue because he and his team had been at the Brier and proved themselves there for 3 years before the Olympics. That reputation helped them recruit Russ for the Olympic run.
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02-01-19 08:58AM |
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Observer
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: River Falls, WI, USA
Posts: 445 |
Re: New idea
quote: Originally posted by Gallan
One idea I like is to treat "residency" like countries do. If you are born in a province, you get to play for that province no matter where you live. Like Jamie Sinclair going to play in the US because she was born there but then raised in Ottawa and developed all her curling skills in Ottawa. Face it, Homan developed all her skill in Ontario. If she has moved to Alberta due to life/family issues, so be it - she should still be able to represent Ontario in the Scotties.
Times they are a changing, if you don't move with them, then they pass you by...
I think I like this. Just so long as it sticks with the person in question and doesn't go back a generation or two.
I remember back when Athens was hosting the Summer Olympics I heard a story that Greece was looking for any American or Canadian baseball players they could find who had any Greek parents or grandparents so they could field a baseball or softball team of their own. As host nation they had a right to have a team in every event, but no one in Greece seemed to know how to play either sport.
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02-02-19 09:39AM |
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nelski
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Twin Snowbanks
Posts: 2068 |
Re: New idea
quote: Originally posted by Gallan
One idea I like is to treat "residency" like countries do. If you are born in a province, you get to play for that province no matter where you live.
Case in Point: I have been following Brette Richard and Blaine deJager for a couple of years on the BC Scotties Circuit - but Why? you ask. Well, they broke their curling teeth in MB (Jill Thurston) in the early teens (as in 2013's etc). I am not sure what their story is, but I see them as Manitoban and cheer them on. They just qualified for the final four in the BC Scotties.
__________________
Lots of major youth (<21) events. Nice for Murdoch... and us :-D.
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02-02-19 05:45PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
Re: New idea
quote: Originally posted by Gallan
One idea I like is to treat "residency" like countries do. If you are born in a province, you get to play for that province no matter where you live. Like Jamie Sinclair going to play in the US because she was born there but then raised in Ottawa and developed all her curling skills in Ottawa. Face it, Homan developed all her skill in Ontario. If she has moved to Alberta due to life/family issues, so be it - she should still be able to represent Ontario in the Scotties.
Times they are a changing, if you don't move with them, then they pass you by...
I like this.
One element I would add though is that I think if a person changes residency from their birth/home province there should be a minimum amount of time (at least a year) before they can go and play for another province (other than their "home" province).
Essentially this would be very similar to the transfer rules in the NCAA. There are exceptions to the rules, but for the most part if you transfer from one school to another and play a sport you have to sit out a year.
Example: Curler X is born in Ontario and cuts their curling teeth there. This is their "home" province. They then go and play for a team in Saskatchewan. After a cycle that team folds, for the sake of argument we'll say they made the Scotties/Brier and the year was 2022. Now, in the 2022-2023 season Curler X can play for another team in Saskatchewan or one back in Ontario, but to play for a team in any other province they would have to wait until the 2023-2024 season.
Ideally, this would allow people to travel, but it would prevent people from bouncing from province to province every single year.
__________________
Recreational curler & resident armchair curler at Windy City Curling Club.
Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.
http://www.nerdcurl.com
Last edited by Phil_D on 02-02-19 at 05:57PM
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