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| 03-20-15 07:42AM |
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Stoner
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 614 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by murphyj87
Going to worlds is not a "right". Norway and Finland (for example)have not been to women's worlds in several years. The US will not be going to worlds either when you fail to qualify to go.
The US does not have to qualify, they are automatic from their region unless someone from that region challenges them to a match and they lose, but no one has yet.
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| 03-20-15 07:52AM |
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My three sons
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: May 2013
Location:
Posts: 32 |
OOM Points are part of the problem. Winning Nationals is worth equal points to winning a so called Slam event in Saskatoon. Winning any tour event should be worth 1/3 of the points a National Championship is worth at best.
You also award points for social get togethers between countries. C'mon, where does it stop. Historically you always had to have at least 16 teams to be awarded points. Get the points in line and we are not having this discussion.
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| 03-20-15 08:13AM |
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murphyj87
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 207 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by Stoner
The US does not have to qualify, they are automatic from their region unless someone from that region challenges them to a match and they lose, but no one has yet.
Based on the relative merits of teams and regions, the US should have to qualify against China, Japan, Korea, Australia and New Zealand in an Asia/Pacific region.
North America only deserves one team, Canada.
Last edited by murphyj87 on 03-20-15 at 08:17AM
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| 03-20-15 08:17AM |
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Stoner
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 614 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by murphyj87
Based on the relative merits of teams and regions, the US should have to qualify against China, Japan, and Korea in an Asia/Pacific region.
North America only deserves one team, Canada.
That's hogwash, the US usually sends a competent team, so there is no reason why they should have to qualify, there are worse teams from Europe. Like I said, if anyone from the Americas, which is their region, not Asia, wants to challenge them they can, there is nothing stopping them.
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| 03-20-15 08:56AM |
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doubletakeout
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 480 |
I think the World Curling Federation would be well-advised to keep 2 Americas teams guaranteed - the USA is still one of the world's biggest and most important sports markets and the potential for upside and growth there is key to the future of the sport.
I wonder if the day may come, however, where we see a last-chance event similar to the Olympic Qualifiers? Asia's getting strong enough now that they may well deserve 3 spots. After all, in the women's field they qualified 3/10 teams! I'm sure Korea would have loved a crack at the bottom European qualifiers, for example.
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| 03-20-15 09:12AM |
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Stoner
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 614 |
quote:
Originally posted by doubletakeout
I think the World Curling Federation would be well-advised to keep 2 Americas teams guaranteed - the USA is still one of the world's biggest and most important sports markets and the potential for upside and growth there is key to the future of the sport.
I wonder if the day may come, however, where we see a last-chance event similar to the Olympic Qualifiers? Asia's getting strong enough now that they may well deserve 3 spots. After all, in the women's field they qualified 3/10 teams! I'm sure Korea would have loved a crack at the bottom European qualifiers, for example.
Asia do deserve a 3rd spot no doubt, their 3rd best team is better than Europe's last place.
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| 03-20-15 09:48AM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
I say take away one of europe's and slot in the 3rd asian team
europe has 7 reps
asia gets 3
north america keeps 2
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| 03-20-15 10:04AM |
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Borough Boy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2007
Location:
Posts: 48 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by murphyj87
Based on the relative merits of teams and regions, the US should have to qualify against China, Japan, Korea, Australia and New Zealand in an Asia/Pacific region.
North America only deserves one team, Canada.
So kind of like the play in system Canada has adopted.
Funny how some are ok suggesting throwing the U.S. in that system but are not ok with poor performing provinces having to do the same for Canada's national championships in men's and women's.
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| 03-20-15 10:24AM |
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Brushing
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 25 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by Borough Boy
So kind of like the play in system Canada has adopted.
Funny how some are ok suggesting throwing the U.S. in that system but are not ok with poor performing provinces having to do the same for Canada's national championships in men's and women's.
This is already happening for Olympic qualification and Jr. Worlds qualification... Funny how some are ok acting like they have a clue on how the future should be when they don't even know what the current situation is.
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| 03-20-15 10:36AM |
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Borough Boy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2007
Location:
Posts: 48 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by Brushing
This is already happening for Olympic qualification and Jr. Worlds qualification... Funny how some are ok acting like they have a clue on how the future should be when they don't even know what the current situation is.
Geez I thought we were talking about the world championships only, most people who have a clue recognize that the Olympic qualification system is altogether different, yeash.
And you if you reread my post, I was not suggesting anything about how the future should be, just pointing out the double standard of some posters comments regarding countries and provinces and the play in system.
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| 03-20-15 10:39AM |
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Brushing
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 25 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by Borough Boy
Geez I thought we were talking about the world championships only, most people who have a clue recognize that the Olympic qualification system is altogether different, yeash.
And you if you reread my post, I was not suggesting anything about how the future should be, just pointing out the double standard of some posters comments regarding countries and provinces and the play in system.
ok, sorry.
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| 03-20-15 10:54AM |
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SPMFromPCC
Swing Artist
Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 440 |
Reading all of this, and allowing time for my eyes to recover from spin cycle because of it all, I'm compelled to point out the one factor that ALL of this revolves around:
Money.
Being the best and playing the best takes money, a ton of it. Want to travel to Canada and compete in all those elite events? You better have pockets deeper than the Grand Canyon. If you're in the HP program then you are blessed, because most (if not all) of that money comes from elsewhere.
If you're not in the HP program, then you either need independent wealth, a big lottery ticket, or some ridiculous sponsors. I keep hearing how teams should just "do the work, and go find sponsorship", which sounds great.....except it's just not that simple. Just go "Find" sponsorship? You do that how, exactly? Walk up to corporate offices and beg on your hands and knees "Please give us $10,000 to compete in Canada, we'll wear all of your clothing and logos!!!" ??
Maybe that's feasible in Canada. Doesn't quite work that way in the USA. Dean Gemmell's micro-sponsor idea works to a point, but obviously isn't going to do much in the face of an entire season's worth of events. The teams that do manage to land a decent sponsorship most often manage it through a personal connection, knowing the right person at the right place, etc. Most are not so fortunate.
So let's call this for what it is: To be the best means you have to be "rich". You could be the best curler in the solar system, but if you don't have the $$ to gamble for points? Too bad. Sucks to be you.
That is the reality of the sport. Do not misunderstand or delude yourselves into thinking otherwise.
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| 03-20-15 10:54AM |
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SillyRock
Knee-Slider
Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 9 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by murphyj87
Going to worlds is not a "right". Norway and Finland (for example) have not been to women's worlds in several years. The US will not be going to worlds either when you fail to qualify to go.
perhaps my sarcasm is a little too good? could it possibly be that many other sports don't send their National Champ to the worlds? could it be that it's only by chance and the work of staff that the USOC has allowed us to do so for many years until now? perhaps we are all just pissed off because daddy is taking away our ball and we think it's not fair? surely the USOC will let us go back to a system that would allow any old team to become Team USA after only playing in three US events, the challenge round, and Nationals, right? that ought to be good enough.
i think whoever goes to worlds should be able to do whatever they want and they should just go by their team name rather than Team USA. that makes more sense. it's not as if there is anything to play for anyway and it's not like they are representing anyone at that point. heck, absolutely nothing should change on the team that goes...they were good enough to win our nationals...that should be enough.
and even though this is the first time the HPP has been able to form teams, i still think they've had plenty of time to figure it out. i mean even though the first 3 years they had to fight and claw with the most sensible and deciisive group of people who were ever assembled on a board of directors, i still think their time is up. let's just ignore the fact that we have more teams ranked higher on tour than ever before in both genders, mnore funding for juniors, open camps for people outside the HPP, a national training center with year round ice.....yes..let's forget all of that and start over...why stay the course and let it play out for once....changing the system has to be the best thing to do....because that's what we've always done. it wouldn't make sense for us to try to get 6 or 8 teams in each gender with enough points to win the Nationals....that would be too hard and wouldn't make any sense.
moving from silly to delusional
i posted again!
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| 03-20-15 12:00PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote:
Originally posted by CURLogic
[B]If OOM points were used to qualify for Nationals, how might that work? Set a minimum total that each team must have earned; rank the teams based on OOM and qualify the top 8; some other ideas?
Easy, really...do something akin to how the US Open of Golf does it...
You can either:
Qualify by being in the top 40 in the World via the World Ranking System (OOM in our sport)
Or
Qualify by winning one of a select set of events (other majors in golf, presumably Grand Slams or the like in curling)
Or
Qualify for one of however many spots remain in the field via an open qualifying process, open to anyone who meets minimum qualifications (in golf, it's a certified handicap under 2 or so, in curling, we could make it playing in a WCT event, or just being a member, or something)
Voila...you have a system which protects the "Elite" (by giving them guaranteed qualification if they truly are Elite), those who may not have acquired the points yet, but are making a splash (ie the New Up And Coming kids) and you maintain a path for the Hope and Dreamers.
Seriously, a qualifier hasn't won the US Open of Golf since...umm...Ouilmet in 1912 I think...and he was an exemption, not a qualifier...yet the qualifying tournaments attract thousands each year who take their shot.
It's not rocket science.
Oh, and the HPP folks shouldn't be involved at all. Their mission shoudl be TRAINING, not TOURNAMENTS
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| 03-20-15 12:03PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by SillyRock
perhaps my sarcasm is a little too good? could it possibly be that many other sports don't send their National Champ to the worlds?
Name one.
Just one.
Name a single Olympic Sport where there is a National Championship organized by the governing body of the sport where the winner of said National Championship is passed over in favor of another team or individual that competed at Nationals and did not win, if said National Champion is eligible for Worlds.
Go ahead...I'm waiting...
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| 03-20-15 12:24PM |
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SmokeyJoe
Hitting Paint
Registered: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 127 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Name one.
Just one.
Name a single Olympic Sport where there is a National Championship organized by the governing body of the sport where the winner of said National Championship is passed over in favor of another team or individual that competed at Nationals and did not win, if said National Champion is eligible for Worlds.
Go ahead...I'm waiting...
Figure skating 
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| 03-20-15 12:27PM |
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SillyRock
Knee-Slider
Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 9 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Name one.
Just one.
Name a single Olympic Sport where there is a National Championship organized by the governing body of the sport where the winner of said National Championship is passed over in favor of another team or individual that competed at Nationals and did not win, if said National Champion is eligible for Worlds.
Go ahead...I'm waiting...
bobsled...not that they have done any good recently.
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| 03-20-15 12:35PM |
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SillyRock
Knee-Slider
Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 9 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by SillyRock
bobsled...not that they have done any good recently.
not that it would count in your eyes because many of these don't have a true amature world championships, but Women's Hockey and Basketball, Volleyball, and before the pro's got in, Men's Hockey and Basketball. i doubt we'd be sending the NCAA champs to Worlds or the Olympics. But maybe we should have in 1980?
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| 03-20-15 12:38PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by SillyRock
and even though this is the first time the HPP has been able to form teams, i still think they've had plenty of time to figure it out. i mean even though the first 3 years they had to fight and claw with the most sensible and deciisive group of people who were ever assembled on a board of directors, i still think their time is up.
As a part of that "sensible and deciisive (sic) group" I take personal offense. I have no idea who you are but if you are not part of that group or have attended board meetings (which are open to the public) then you don't have a clue. The HPP has been completely under the control of the CEO for some time. The board actually does not even get to see the HP program document so there is NO interference from the board. Get your facts straight and volunteer to be on the board.
quote:
Originally posted by SillyRock
yes..let's forget all of that and start over...why stay the course and let it play out for once....changing the system has to be the best thing to do....because that's what we've always done.
moving from silly to delusional
i posted again!
Yes, the HPP went to an OOM concept, that was a change to the system. The HPP went to selected teams, that was a change to the system. So, seems that what was always done is still being done. Not sure what "course" you would like to stay, please enlighten us.
JHcurl
(as always Jeff Hannon)
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| 03-20-15 01:01PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by SillyRock
bobsled...not that they have done any good recently.
Seeing as how bobsled holds their National Championships *after* the World Cup season is over...well...yeah...no way to do that.
However....I point something out...
US Bobsled holds a team selection event at the beginning of the season.
Guess who becomes team USA? (Well...one of 3 teams, technically).
If you said "The team that wins the team selection event"...ding ding ding...you are correct.
So, your suggestion is more or less, completely invalid.
Try again.
Last edited by AlanMacNeill on 03-20-15 at 01:06PM
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| 03-20-15 01:13PM |
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VAcurler
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 136 |
I would consider a #7 world ranking, a 2010 Olympic Gold and 2014 Olympic Bronze in bobsled as being quite good. #TeamNightTrain
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| 03-20-15 01:57PM |
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peglegg
Hitting Paint
Registered: Mar 2005
Location:
Posts: 101 |
You all make me hate curling. With the exception of Dr. Frykenstein.
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| 03-20-15 04:03PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
Whoa there SillyRock, you have too many fish on at the same time! I would put your sarcasm level at fully weaponized. The Geneva convention should apply, or perhaps we need a Royal Caledonian Convention to iron(y) this all out?
Tuck, your honeypot is definitely working! La Brea tar pit regards and a tip of the flat hat to you!
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| 03-20-15 04:10PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: of course
quote:
Originally posted by SillyRock
it wouldn't make sense for us to try to get 6 or 8 teams in each gender with enough points to win the Nationals....that would be too hard and wouldn't make any sense.
moving from silly to delusional
i posted again!
Keep stirring, um, I mean posting!
It used to be harder to get out of WI or MN or ND than it was to win Nationals, then we went to a model where teams could curl out of just about anyplace that would qualify them. Now how about a curling tour where the top 7 teams at the end of the tour get into Nationals, along with the Jr. winner?
SillyString, you must be a puppet master, you got me hook line and sinker on this one!
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