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02-07-17 11:35AM |
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ngm
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 272 |
Here's what I wrote one of the last few dozen times we had this same discussion. The key point is in the last paragraph.
quote: These are some considerations in designing a curling event:
1. You want the best team to win.
2. You want to have a predictable schedule for the players.
3. You want to have a predictable schedule for the live spectators (if applicable).
4. You want to have a predictable schedule for television viewers (if applicable).
5. You want as many games as possible to be meaningful and interesting.
Here are some formats and their pros and cons:
A. Pure double/triple knockout. Possibly the best at assuring item 1. Satisfies 5. perfectly. Terrible for 2, 3,and 4. Many single game draws needed at end of event.
B. Modified double/triple knockout leading to "qualifiers" and single elimination playoffs. OK for 1., in that the best teams make the playoffs, but then a crapshoot. Good for 5. Not so great (but better than A) for 2, 3, 4. Efficient for cashspiels.
C. Pure round robin with tie break for champion. Very good for 1. rivaling
A. Very good for 2, 3, and 4. But utterly abysmal for 5. The entire final round or even two could be meaningless for all. There is no "championship" game, necessarily. Time consuming.
D. Round robin with playoffs Brier original (2 v. 3 then winner v. 1). OK for 1 the best teams are in the playoffs but then a bit of a crapshoot. Fine for 2,3,4. Better with 5 than pure round robin. At least a few of the final rounds can be meaningful Time consuming.
E. Round robin with playoffs World version 1 (1 v. 4, 2 v. 3, then a final) Same as D. but very risky for 1 seed. An extra team in the playoffs improves item 5.
F. Round robin with playoffs almost double knockout version, a.k.a. "Page" system. Pretty good for 1. Good for 2, 3, 4. Better than C and D for 5 (more playoff teams.) Main criticism is that perhaps round robin winner not rewarded "enough".
All the systems really do have their pros and cons. Some people will be miserable no matter what - because they are miserable people and not because of the particulars of any tournament organization.
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02-07-17 01:25PM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
ngm :
I like your analysis of pros and cons of each format.
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE your last sentence : Some people will be miserable no matter what - because they are miserable people and not of the particulars of any tournament or organization.
It is my experience that the ones that are always complaining about the set up of the event being unfair have two things in common. 1) they did not win. 2) they have never organized an event themselves.
As for the ones complaining about the tie-breakers schedule, the WCT event I use to run had tie-breakers on Saturday night at 11pm. I will always remember the words of Sherri Middaugh. She was involved in one of these late games. I felt so bad and approached her as an organizer to say that I was sorry about this. Her answer was priceless. ''Don't worry about it. That's the price we have to pay for not winning the games we should have won.''
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02-07-17 05:43PM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
Re: Re: Page plays itself out again
quote: Originally posted by guido
If this was the case, Epping would have only had ONE chance. Lose and DONE.
I'll bet, if you ask Epping he would have preferred a well deserved rest, not a made for tv... preliminary game. He might have played better with a rest, they were maybe showing fatigue. There has to be a reward for the round robin winner, or just run seeded pools.
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02-07-17 05:51PM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
quote: Originally posted by ngm
Here's what I wrote one of the last few dozen times we had this same discussion. The key point is in the last paragraph.
"D" is the perfect tried and true solution. Marginal teams rarely get in the back door. That's my $0.02. Over and out.
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02-07-17 06:22PM |
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jasoon
Knee-Slider
Registered: Feb 2017
Location:
Posts: 2 |
epping lost
The problem isnt that epping lost. The problem is if he would have won, he would have just won an extra game he shouldn't have had to play. If he goes directly to the final and loses, fine. At least he got that advantage.
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02-07-17 06:29PM |
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jasoon
Knee-Slider
Registered: Feb 2017
Location:
Posts: 2 |
Situation D
This is the best solution of the ones listed, but you need not get rid of the 3 vs 4 game. Just keep the situation the same as it is now. Just eliminate the 1 vs 2 game, and give #1 a spot in the finals. Yes it is one and done, and they don't get a second chance either. But in the 1 vs 2 game, ONLY the loser gets a second chance anyway. The winner doesnt. And if #1 is 11-0 and second is 8-3 like in the scoties with rachel Homan a few years ago, if you want to reward the winner of the round robin, it makes no sense to tell a 11-0 team we will give you a second chance if you lose, but if you win you get no better than a one and done final, which you should have being given anyway.
Last edited by jasoon on 02-07-17 at 06:32PM
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02-07-17 08:07PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
Re: Re: Re: Page plays itself out again
quote: Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
I'll bet, if you ask Epping he would have preferred a well deserved rest, not a made for tv... preliminary game. He might have played better with a rest, they were maybe showing fatigue. There has to be a reward for the round robin winner, or just run seeded pools.
Really????
Poor John was tired. They might have shown some fatigue? The reward was 2 chances to get to the final.
I wonder if that over 50 back end of Howards were a bit tired??? They should have been, after all they are almost twice John's age.
I'll bet, if you asked Epping, he will be the first to say they screwed up the excellent situation they were in.
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02-07-17 10:38PM |
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Prawnpuller
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 97 |
This thread seems to be more geared to Epping losing out than a suitable system of play downs.....Curling like all sports is a "what have you done lately" scenario."...He played well but not well enough under a system they all understood going in. He lost. Get over it and move on.
Two things can happen.....one is bad
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02-09-17 10:49AM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
quote: Originally posted by Prawnpuller
This thread seems to be more geared to Epping losing out than a suitable system of play downs.....Curling like all sports is a "what have you done lately" scenario."...He played well but not well enough under a system they all understood going in. He lost. Get over it and move on.
Two things can happen.....one is bad
I couldn't care a less who won the thing! My point was there are better systems that reward and take into consideration the round-robin winner. I still maintain that round robin, (tie breaker if applicable) semi and final playoff is the way to go. Give me a bye(s) to the final anytime, I'll take it.
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02-09-17 11:44AM |
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Ajay
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 570 |
I feel the page system is the fairest way, short of playing a 2 of 3 or 3 of 5. ( neither will happen) . Epping and the Falcons had their respective championships sewed up by all normal game standards and they both choked in the last few minutes of the game. Neither had anything to do with the playoff process.
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02-10-17 04:04PM |
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Longroll
Knee-Slider
Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 1 |
Doesn't the team with the best record in the round robin get hammer in the 1-2 game? And doesn't the team with hammer win around 60% of the time? Seems to me that the top round robin team is richly rewarded for its play.
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02-10-17 04:13PM |
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ngm
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 272 |
quote: Originally posted by Longroll
Doesn't the team with the best record in the round robin get hammer in the 1-2 game? And doesn't the team with hammer win around 60% of the time? Seems to me that the top round robin team is richly rewarded for its play.
And they also get first choice of rocks - from any sheet as long as they are the same colour. Another lesser known but possible advantage.
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02-10-17 06:15PM |
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drawthepin
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 73 |
quote: Originally posted by curlerbroad
How about do what Sask and AB do - have a triple knockout with ABC...lose three times and you're out whether you are Epping Howard or Tuck.
Sometimes you get the result you might not expect (i.e. SK) but saves tie-breakers, shortens the time etc...
Not really a difference imo. Bottcher went undefeated and qualified out of A. If he loses his next two games, its the exact situation, undefeated until the playoffs.
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02-10-17 10:21PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
non modified triple
By far the best way to get the best team at the end of the day.
Do this for provincials and if the TV dollar rules the Brier and Scotties, do the page there.
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