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05-04-18 03:45PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
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Well stated. On behalf of the "Joe Curlers" I'm certain 95% would agree. I also agree about the hidden agenda to promote the slams to be the be all end all for curling, that started 5 years ago that's killing curling for all except the rich slam teams.

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05-08-18 10:15AM
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Going back to Jamcam - my apologies, by more experience I meant someone who has been around long enough to know why the Canada Cup was created.

The thing I find interesting about the Canada Cup is that Curling Canada recognizes it's a more premier event than the national championships - winners get direct births to the trials vs having to medal at the world's for our national champions.

If Curling Canada (and again, if we agree the Olympics are the ultimate prize) doesn't place residency restrictions on their two biggest events (Canada Cup and Trials), then why charge more for out-of-province players?

One could argue that having a Team Canada and a wild card team dilutes the national championship experience more than loose residency requirements.

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06-13-18 02:35PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


Your 'zero-sum' theory is based on the presumption of equal player transfers which, as anyone can see has not happened (who left BC when John Morris parachuted here?).

And the idea of a $4000.00 is directly with rich teams in mind. They are the teams who currently parachute players because they already have more money than poor teams who don't bring in players. So why on earth would you have a low fee?

Poorer teams would get some measure of protection with the deterrent of a high fee to the rich and even if they pay, then the money goes to a decent cause.



I'm poor, but I'm parachuting in. Instead of looking at the negative side of someone coming into a province to play, how about add the we are bringing more curlers to a dying province?

The rule is in place accept it. Everyone is allowed to bring someone in if they want to, if you don't want to live with it.

Stop living in the past, curling has evolved and so should people's backwards thinking the curling is a territorial sport. While we are at it maybe we should insist on a tobacco sponsor and smoke on the ice again!

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06-13-18 04:15PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hogginsheets


I'm poor, but I'm parachuting in. Instead of looking at the negative side of someone coming into a province to play, how about add the we are bringing more curlers to a dying province?

The rule is in place accept it. Everyone is allowed to bring someone in if they want to, if you don't want to live with it.

Stop living in the past, curling has evolved and so should people's backwards thinking the curling is a territorial sport. While we are at it maybe we should insist on a tobacco sponsor and smoke on the ice again!



Ah look, Stephen Schneider has entered the discussion. Well Steve, you of all people should understand why allowing parachuting is bad. After all, contrary to this post, you had more than a few negative things to say about the subject.

However, in fairness you atempt to raise a very flawed point. Parachuting does not bring new, permanent curlers into our province. It only brings opportunists looking for a quick score and out.

They also deny a local, dues payig resident the opportunity to play on a competitive team and develop skills.

But these are all things you know and have voiced in the past.

And had you actually read the start of the thread you would understand that I am well aware that the rule cannot be undone. The suggestion of an out of province fee (which you would have to pay) is to penalize those teams who ignore local talent and help fund Junior programs.

Best of luck in Cowtown. Sure hope we get a chance to play you this season.

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Last edited by jamcan on 06-13-18 at 04:17PM

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06-14-18 03:49PM
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Most regular curlers and top and players aren’t bothered by the movement from Providence the province

Just the old farts on curling zone care - And most weren’t ever competitive anyways

Lol

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06-14-18 06:43PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Agreed, in the past I complained about others coming to play when it was done illegally and not following residency rules...but I'm sure someone will argue i said different i'm sure you can guess who.

Thanks Fresco, I totally agree that curling has changed and people have to stop thinking what happened in 1960. Sports evolve and so do those that play the sport, fight progress all you want but it happens in all sport, life, work, etc.....you have to change with the time of be left behind, not penalized to pay for change as suggested in this string.

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06-15-18 05:06AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hogginsheets
Thanks Fresco, I totally agree that curling has changed and people have to stop thinking what happened in 1960. Sports evolve and so do those that play the sport, fight progress all you want but it happens in all sport, life, work, etc.....you have to change with the time of be left behind, not penalized to pay for change as suggested in this string.

You keep mentioning 'evolving' and 'progress', as if these elements are absolutes.
They are, of course, not absolutes...

Firstly, the definition of 'progress' differs depending upon a given individual's perspective. What can be progressive to one person can be downright regressive to another.

What you like to refer to as 'progress' is, in fact, simply change.
And it is very important to look at the reason(s) that a given change is made. If the reasons are selfish and self-serving, they are likely not progressive in an overall sense (they are only 'progressive' for the person(s) who stand to selfishly benefit from the change(s)).
"Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."

It's always good to look at the overall situation, and not just the angle which supports your personal agenda.

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06-15-18 11:51AM
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On The Nose, I will offer an unpopular opinion/theory for why parachuting is actually progress, and not just change.

Curling participation is dwindling in Canada as I understand it. Curling in the rest of the world is growing. While Canada is still the dominant force in curling, the gap has closed (though Canada still has a huge lead).

But as my theory goes, as curling transitions worldwide from a club sport to a professional one, the rest of the world will continue to close the huge gap at a rapid rate. It is unreasonable to think that geo-locking Canada's team will produce Canada's absolute best possible team, and as such, a completely geo-locked etam structure is less likely to maintain the huge lead that Canada has on the rest of the world.

But on a less abstract point, as curlers become professional athletes, which is happening, the idea of ones home province is silly. With the travel schedule that the elite maintain right now, it is easier to think of them as traveling gypsies more so than people directly tied to a region. I cant imagine that someone like a Gushue gets to spend more than 50% of their time actually at home.

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06-15-18 05:21PM
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what you're missing curlky is the damage parachuting does to local player development.

and onthenose is correct. parachuting has no positive impact on growth and is self-serving.

so if we're to allow it then it should be at an increased price to somewhat compensate for the negative impact it inflicts, with the money going to development programs.

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06-15-18 05:46PM
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Not sure how 1 or 2 players coming into a province justifies a $4000.00 entry for a whole team or how it takes away a spot from a local curler.

Competitive curling in BC is a dying breed, so of course teams have to look elsewhere or team numbers may decrease.

As I've mentioned before curling is not a territorial game anymore it has changed into a national sport not a regional sport. Times are a changing and so must our thinking to improve the game.

Other countries do this format and the results are obvious and they don't make their players pay an extra $4000.00 to curl....lets learn from proven formats and not stick with our same old routine that has obviously not worked in most regions in Canada.

Last edited by hogginsheets on 06-15-18 at 06:06PM

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06-15-18 08:20PM
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Well Steve it's pretty obvious and straightforward to the average layman, but I'll lay it out for you.

You moved to Calgary for a new job. Under old rules this would open up a spot on your old team.

Now a replacement could come from another team or be a player new to the competitive side of the game. But even a replacement from another squad still opens up an opportunity-just on a different team.

But when you allow parachuting you shut the door on that opportunity for a local player.

Which, whether you agree or not, is exactly what you, yourself, are doing. So by parachuting you are actually doing harm to BC talent development.

Now CCA rules allow this. But since it has a detrimental impact then the question is: should it be free?

Personally I don't think it should be and you should look at any out of province fee as a tax.

Want to smoke or drink? Both are detrimental to your health and a costly burden on health care so you pay a pretty hefty tax when you imbibe.

Want to take away an opportunity from a local, dues paying BC curler and hinder their development? Fine, the rules (like alcohol and tobacco laws) allow it. But you, like a drinker and smoker, can pay extra for a free will choice (because nothing is stopping you from finding a team in Calgary, is it?) that has a negative impact here in BC.

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06-15-18 08:34PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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As usual I will nod and agree since I cannot once again not find any justification in your argument or point of view.

For 90% of us this is a sport of recreation so you justify charging people more to curl a way to promote the sport and increase participation?

As usual I am done as only your point of view matters.

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06-15-18 08:37PM
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lol. sorry you feel that way in a debate.

btw 99% of curlers respect provincial boundaries and dont parachute.

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06-15-18 09:49PM
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Previously everyone was a recreational player, some just took it more seriously. The advent of professional curling has split the game into 2 tiers, recreational curlers and those who set aside family and work to be a pro.

If someone parachuting into your province hinders yoru development, quite fraqnly you were never meant to be a pro anyway. A true pro overcomes, practices harder to make it so they want you and not someone else. Or puts together their own team finds their own sponsor. Not willing to do that, then you were never serious anyway, and you deserve to be parachuted over. NO great player, who does not act like an idiot will get overlooked.

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06-16-18 05:35PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Previously everyone was a recreational player, some just took it more seriously. The advent of professional curling has split the game into 2 tiers, recreational curlers and those who set aside family and work to be a pro.

If someone parachuting into your province hinders yoru development, quite fraqnly you were never meant to be a pro anyway. A true pro overcomes, practices harder to make it so they want you and not someone else. Or puts together their own team finds their own sponsor. Not willing to do that, then you were never serious anyway, and you deserve to be parachuted over. NO great player, who does not act like an idiot will get overlooked.



Except that there is no such thing as professional curling.

There are some countries with government employees who are paid to curl for their countries. But cslling them professionals is a stretch.

Until such time as multiple (and read that as dozens) teams can make a true living off of winning prize money, curling can-at best-only be considered semi-pro (also a stretch)

Plus, the old ' if you want it bad enough' cliche you espoused is not only unrealistic, it's condescending and usually the last retort of the wealthy.

Who ironically tend to be the parachuters (psst, hogginsheets ain't poor as he lets on)

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06-17-18 02:31PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan

Except that there is no such thing as professional curling.



False, False, a thousand times false. Just because they don't make a great living does not mean they are not pros. I think a fair description to being a pro is that you are playing for money AND a huge amount of your life revolves around the sport. I add the second part because anyone can go sign up for a cash spiel, but when you have hired a coach and trainers, are employing analytics services, and spend as much time on the road as teams do, then you are a pro. Someone sponsors your team (am I am not talking small money to buy your jerseys, you are a pro. When 10 teams earned more than $70K in prize money (not counting any sponsorship money) you are a pro.

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06-21-18 06:11PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


Except that there is no such thing as professional curling.

There are some countries with government employees who are paid to curl for their countries. But cslling them professionals is a stretch.

Until such time as multiple (and read that as dozens) teams can make a true living off of winning prize money, curling can-at best-only be considered semi-pro (also a stretch)

Plus, the old ' if you want it bad enough' cliche you espoused is not only unrealistic, it's condescending and usually the last retort of the wealthy.

Who ironically tend to be the parachuters (psst, hogginsheets ain't poor as he lets on)



You'd know if I was rich or poor i sponsored you for a year

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06-22-18 08:09PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hogginsheets


You'd know if I was rich or poor i sponsored you for a year



You sponsored me? Cool! I had no idea! Can I have all my entry fee and hotel money back then?

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06-22-18 08:15PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky


False, False, a thousand times false. Just because they don't make a great living does not mean they are not pros. I think a fair description to being a pro is that you are playing for money AND a huge amount of your life revolves around the sport. I add the second part because anyone can go sign up for a cash spiel, but when you have hired a coach and trainers, are employing analytics services, and spend as much time on the road as teams do, then you are a pro. Someone sponsors your team (am I am not talking small money to buy your jerseys, you are a pro. When 10 teams earned more than $70K in prize money (not counting any sponsorship money) you are a pro.



True, true one thousand times true!

True professionals make their livlihood off their winnings in their chosen endevaur. Show me a single, non-government funded team who's members can survive on their cashspiel winnings alone curlky.

What's that I hear? oh yeah, crickets. Cuz there ain't one.

Get back to me on 'professionalism' when you have something more concrete than your personal, subjective interpretation of the word.

Meanwhile, I'll put you down as a no for the parachute tax. lol.

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06-25-18 12:08PM
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jamcan, how do you define being a professinal? many people, including yourself interpret that being a professional at a sport means making a great living. They think of salaries perhaps of the NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB etc. But many professional athletes make terrible salaries.

Take Professional Minor League Baseball players (A, AA, AAA). WHile someone in MLB has a starting salary of $545,000, a first year minor league contract provides income fixed at $1,100 per month of play plus a $25 per day meal allowance while traveling (source http://www.milb.com/milb/info/faq.jsp?mc=business#11)) So you aer only talking about $7,000 for the season. The best AAA players make $10,000 per month, or $60,000. But for people in lower leagues, a salary of less than 10 or 20 grand is common. This is on par with what truly elite curlers make now from cashspiels

Take minor league NBA (the D League). For the 2018-19 season: players under NBA G League contracts will earn a base salary of $7,000 per month – or $35,000 – for the five-month regular season. This is a bit more than elite curlers make, but not far from curling winnings.

Take minor league golf, the web.com tour, which has a format similar to curling where your money is all winnings based without a salary.. There are 215 people on the tour. 97 of them make less than $2,000 per event, or $2,000 per week. 42 make less than $1,000 per event. ANd keep in mind that all of these people have to pay for their own travel, lodging and coaches, as well as travel expenses and salaries of their caddies.

I could go on an on with regards to professional atheltes not making enough money to earn a great living. Or we could go with all the people who make less than a living wage at their professional jobs, but I wont go there for now.

The whole point is that your assumption that making a good living off of curling makes you a pro. This is not true as thousands of atheltes across many sports are professionals and do nto make a living off it, and need outside income to supplement their poor wages.

SO there are your facts, I'l wait for you to say something new.

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06-26-18 01:27AM
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curlky I won't debate the numbers you post. why? because they validate exactly what I say when I state that there is no such thing as professional curling.

Look at your post. If the WCT and its SLAMS are the zenith of competitive curling, then they pay worse than single A ball, or the Nike tour, or the continental basketball league or the CFL.

The WCT is the curling equivalent of the MLB, NHL, NFL and other top level pro sport organizations but what does it pay? chump change equivalent to the lowest levels of development leagues and tours.

Calling curling 'professional' when a kid on the bus in single A ball does better than national curling champions is ludicrous.

And you should do some homework on our illustrious WCT. Every season there are fewer events and less money on the tour. Thats not a future.

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06-27-18 12:27AM
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What do you call the players/teams that are fully funded, salary and all expenses, in some countries?

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06-27-18 05:43PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ajay
What do you call the players/teams that are fully funded, salary and all expenses, in some countries?


Government Employees.

Pros-true ones-pay their own way and make their earnings from their sport. Be it from event winnings or a contract with private team ownership.

If taxpayers are funding your team, it's expenses and salaries then you're not a pro.

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06-27-18 08:20PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ajay
What do you call the players/teams that are fully funded, salary and all expenses, in some countries?


Lucky !

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07-03-18 02:53PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Calling curling 'professional' when a kid on the bus in single A ball does better than national curling champions is ludicrous.


What? The single A player, who is 100% a professional, makes under $6,000 per year, plus a reimbursement of about $1250 for meals. So lets say this is $7,500 per year. If this were a team of 4, that woudl combine to $30K. So let me look at the curling tour, and how many teams earned more than $30K. There are 16 men's teams and 20 women's teams. So at least 144 curlers are professionals by salary standards compared to A ball. This does not include any sponsorship money, or government subsidies they get, just winning.

Now, this is a terrible salary, and needs to be supplemented by other income. But plenty of non-sports professionals work 2 jobs.

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One of the Largest Floor Curling Events in Canada

One of the Largest Floor Curling Events in Canada

Over 550 Grade 3 students from 12 schools in five School Divisions will be taking part when CurlManitoba hosts one of Canada's largest youth floor curling tournaments at the Sport for Life Centre, Thursday, October 18.

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