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05-11-16 07:28PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
The only heads I heard of where you could visually see any damage were the "blackheads"that Balance plus made and were used in one event.
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05-11-16 08:51PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote: Originally posted by curlky
I've grown amazingly tired of your condescending superiority complex that you have. You have absolutely zero desire to actually have a conversation to solve a problem. You want your way, and are unwilling to listen to anything else. and if someone provides a point that is hard to dispute, you just turn to name calling and degrading others. I even stated above that I agree with you that I want someone to write a COMPLETE solution that supports limits on angle and technique and yet you still want to be, well you. I guess not everyone can be a problem solver.
There you go playing the wounded poster card again. I challenge you to find a post on this thread where I've called any one names. And for someone who pompously ignores reasonable responses to his questions but simply asks them over and over again, I don't think you should be calling anyone condescending or superior when you've pretty much cornered that market.
If you don't like what I write, don't read it curlky. And don't be so patronizing.
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05-12-16 06:48PM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
The only heads I heard of where you could visually see any damage were the "blackheads"that Balance plus made and were used in one event.
Were most of the teams in the mens worlds using those blackheads? I did not know that.
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Art M
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05-14-16 02:46AM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote: Originally posted by ott-am
Were most of the teams in the mens worlds using those blackheads? I did not know that.
No, they were only brought out and used at the Stu Sells Toronto Tankard back in the fall.
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05-14-16 10:47AM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
quote: Originally posted by Phil_D
No, they were only brought out and used at the Stu Sells Toronto Tankard back in the fall.
So, it is not just the blackheads. It was happening with some of the brushes at the mens worlds, and at the recent Players and Champions Cup, too. Teams could not follow that paths that had just been "carved". Anyway, the players and the testers will have all the information.
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05-14-16 11:25AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
quote: Originally posted by ott-am
So, it is not just the blackheads. It was happening with some of the brushes at the mens worlds, and at the recent Players and Champions Cup, too. Teams could not follow that paths that had just been "carved". Anyway, the players and the testers will have all the information.
based on what information did this happen at those events?
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05-14-16 11:37AM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
based on what information did this happen at those events?
Watching the worlds on TV and hearing the commentary and players comments. Attending the Players and Champions Cup and hearing the players comments.
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05-14-16 11:45AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Colour commentators arent experts. My question is why was the ice not unplayable when two sweepers were sweeping the path? Twice as many scratches down that path yet you would see shot after shot down the same path with no problems at all.
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05-14-16 11:51AM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Colour commentators arent experts. My question is why was the ice not unplayable when two sweepers were sweeping the path? Twice as many scratches down that path yet you would see shot after shot down the same path with no problems at all.
Different fabric I would think. Seems pretty obvious.
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05-14-16 12:01PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
quote: Originally posted by ott-am
Different fabric I would think. Seems pretty obvious.
But these fabrics, and other ones that were supposedly worse were around last year and the year before.
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05-14-16 12:25PM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
But these fabrics, and other ones that were supposedly worse were around last year and the year before.
I am not an expert on fabric, but the ones they are using must be different. You are right, they were not scratching the ice in past seasons, but they sure were this year. Not all teams had scratching fabric, but some did.
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05-14-16 05:30PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
At the worlds and the two slams afterwards all players used approved heads.
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05-14-16 05:52PM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
At the worlds and the two slams afterwards all players used approved heads.
Good point dugless. I agree with you that more fabric needs to be banned.
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05-14-16 06:41PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Didn't say that. Just said that at the Brier, worlds and slams all brooms were approved materials. Personally I think you tighten sweeping rules first, take away the worst of the directional north-south corner sweeping and snowplowing and see what happens for the season next year.
This cost players ( both recreational and competitive) nothing as they don't have to purchase new equipment and the companies don't have to make last minute changes to equipment. If after next season equipment changes are still needed then you look at the equipment.
Hair brooms have been around for 30 plus years, and were the recommended alternative to the "banned" pads, recommended by the governing bodies, until it was shown that the "new sweeping technique"made" this old technology as effective as the high tech equipment. This alone tells you that it is the technique more than the weapon. Fix the sweeping and see where you are first.
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05-14-16 07:00PM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
Dugless, you make all the arguments for banning carving fabric and have me convinced, then you change your tune at the end. You must beat yourself in debating contests.
The bottom line, as we both agreed to earlier, is that if a fabric is scratching the ice such that the opponents cannot follow you down, it must be banned. The other option is to keep the clock on the offending team for 3-4 minutes after they have thrown so the ice may be played on, but I do not think that is practical.
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05-14-16 08:53PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
When did i say anything about carving fabrics being banned?
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05-15-16 09:05AM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
When did i say anything about carving fabrics being banned?
So, you think they should allow fabric that does not allow an opponent to play in the path where the previous shot was just thrown?
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05-15-16 10:02AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
So previous to this past season two sweepers would sweep a draw the length of the ice. The other team's two sweepers would then sweep a draw down the same path for a perfect freeze, followed by the first team playing another freeze, with two sweepers, down the same path. No problem at all, no one saying the ice is damaged.Those sweepers could have been using pads that were banned this past season and have no problem playing on the ice.So how is it that the two sweeper banned pad shots were not a problem but one sweeper approved pad shots leave the path unplayable. Maybe you should not always be buying the agenda the commentator might be selling.
Last edited by dugless_zone 13 on 05-15-16 at 11:03AM
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05-15-16 06:59PM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
So previous to this past season two sweepers would sweep a draw the length of the ice. The other team's two sweepers would then sweep a draw down the same path for a perfect freeze, followed by the first team playing another freeze, with two sweepers, down the same path. No problem at all, no one saying the ice is damaged.Those sweepers could have been using pads that were banned this past season and have no problem playing on the ice.So how is it that the two sweeper banned pad shots were not a problem but one sweeper approved pad shots leave the path unplayable. Maybe you should not always be buying the agenda the commentator might be selling.
So you honestly believe that one sweeper scratches the ice, but two do not? Did you watch the mens worlds on TV? It was clear the ice was being scratched. If you did not watch it, I am sure you can find a few games on replay.
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05-15-16 07:07PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Wow, comprehension is not your strong point. What i said was if one sweeper was scratching the ice so much that it was almost unplayable then how come the previous seasons when there were two sweepers sweeping a rock with brooms that were later banned, there were no such complaints. There should have been twice as much scratching and even more unplayable ice, more than one sweeper with an approved pad. And i did watch the worlds, but if you watched without taking everything the announcers said as fact you might be more informed.
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05-15-16 07:13PM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
quote: Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Wow, comprehension is not your strong point. What i said was if one sweeper was scratching the ice so much that it was almost unplayable then how come the previous seasons when there were two sweepers sweeping a rock with brooms that were later banned, there were no such complaints. There should have been twice as much scratching and even more unplayable ice, more than one sweeper with an approved pad. And i did watch the worlds, but if you watched without taking everything the announcers said as fact you might be more informed.
So it must be the fabric they are using this year, sheesh, what don't you get?
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05-15-16 07:22PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
The fabric they were using with two sweepers was the fabric that was banned as too aggresive yet the fabric at the worlds, brier etc was the approved fabric. Seriously, bad fabric pre 2015-16 season, good fabric 2015-16 season ( the season that just finished if that helps).
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05-15-16 08:16PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
Two parts to it. The TopGun fabric was not widely used before this season and the reasons it's become an issue is realizing how good it is brand new. Once these heads are broken in, they don't seem to be an issue.
Any rules need to minimize the advantages of regularly changing brush pads or switching brushes to take advantage of fresh heads.
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05-15-16 08:37PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
No one knows for sure, but...my theory is that in previous seasons, most of the time when sweeping occurred both sweepers were working, so the scratches were opposed to each other, cancelling out the effects (at least to a degree). Therefore less ice "damage" that needed to be overcome.
This season, however, as there was a proliferation of single sweepers, the scratches are in one direction only, increasing their relative effect.
One would think science could test this theory...but it's at least as valid as most others out there (and, if it proves out, then the rule is easy to write: "When sweeping, both sweepers must sweep, unless a standing stone or other outside influence prevents it from being able to be done safely".
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05-15-16 09:29PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Two sweepers might cancel out the effect of directional sweeping but would not decrease the amount of damage that one sweeper would make. Damage on top of damage would make the ice less playable.
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