Registered: Oct 2012
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Posts: 119

This is interesting.

http://www.goldlinecurling.com/en/c...reational-clubs

What stood out for me was the sentence that states that the vast majority of recreational curlers would be ineffective using the new pads. In other words they might as well not sweep.

I wonder how this is going to affect the new pad sales for competitive/recreational curlers?

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
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Actually, it reads like a statement from a manufacturer who's stuck with inventory that no one wants to buy.

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Registered: Jan 2016
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Well, he's not wrong. In my experience most club curlers don't get that much weight on the broom, which is needed with this new fabric. I've played with the new fabric at an event that mandated it, and it wasn't that effective even for teams there for the money. They also get dirty incredibly quickly making them very cost ineffective.

Clubs should put as few restrictions as possible on their league players. Most of them aren't there to be super competitive on a Wednesday after work. They're there to have some fun with their fellow curlers. If a more effective head is going to last longer and help them to make a couple more shots than they would with an "approved" head, then let them do what's more cost effective, and fun, for them.

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
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Jamcan is right... sounds like a supplier is trying to move a bunch of broom heads that no one wants to buy.

My favourite paragraph:

"It must be recognized that the WCF certified pad is a very non aggressive product, designed to minimize the ability of elite sweepers to steer a rock. In the hands of the vast majority of recreational curlers it is virtually ineffective as a sweeping device. It can be argued that a recreational curler may as well not sweep as sweep with a WCF certified pad."

Well, isn't that just a bit insulting?

I know a lot of "recreational" leagues that are filled with some good curlers who can sweep damn well... not as good as the elite, but effective nonetheless. And there are a lot of less-than-elite curlers out there that are still curling competively and doing quite well at various levels.

Of course, the daytime ladies league, the Monday Beginners League or the Sunday afternoon social league may not be at that level, but you get the point.

And this I think was interesting too:

"The WCF has ruled that hair brooms are not permitted in play leading to WCF championships. The rational for this ruling is that hair brooms are too easily modified to achieve undesired effects. No ruling or recommendation exists vis a vis use of hair brooms in recreational play. Clubs may wish to adopt a rule whereby hair brooms are not permitted in select bonspiels and club playdowns."

I thought hair brooms were banned because they were even more effective than the other brooms in steering rocks with the lax sweeping mechanic rules? They weren't too easily modified... they were too easy to use to manipulate the rocks trajectory when you can sweep any way you choose?

So... which one was it? I'm calling a bit of baloney on this one.

Anyway, I think the right way to go about it have the individual leagues/events come up with their own equipment rules. The manufacturers and elite opened up this can of worms, now it looks like the law of unintended consequences is coming into effect.

And maybe Goldline can try to be just a little less insulting in their messaging. Sheesh.

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Registered: Oct 2012
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I didn't get the impression that Goldline was insulting recreational players. If you look at the statement it probably is true that the vast majority of brushers in curling clubs aren't that effective. Yes, there are good brushers at any club, but, when you look at the numbers the vast majority would be relatively ineffective.

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Registered: Oct 2013
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I'm going to set teh Over/Under for number of posts until Jamcan finds a way to turn this thread into one about sweeping technique not equipment at 4.5. And I'm going to take the under.

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Registered: Apr 2011
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I find Goldlines Statement rather interesting and not totally factual. While "club" curlers are not as effective as our so called "pro" curlers however they are effective.

Goldline is stuck with a lot of inventory and is trying to convince everyone to buy theirs without a solid insert. If I remember correctly at the the Summit the test results showed the Norway to be the same as Hardline's head with the insert in terms of scoring the ice. I could stand corrected as there were so many heads and fabrics.

Listen, this is really simple. The WCF, along with the CCA has decided on a certain rule for officiated play that lead to world events. The club curlers can virtually do as they wish but I, for one, would disagree with any device that damages the ice.

Its going to be really interesting with the wear rate and how certain companies and "pro" curlers manipulate their heads physically during a game. I saw some evidence of that already in competition.

Its also interesting that the rule states that no ink on the fabric can be in contact with the ice surface whereas a couple of companies have stamped their names on the side and when a sweeper lays weight on it, the ink is on the ice and no doubt wearing off. If I were officiating at that game, that head would be not be legal.

So, the drama continues.

IMHO

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Registered: Feb 2012
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Have only watched this season video of the Mixed Worlds. Saw a couple of teams with just one sweeper sweeping. Is that happening this season also on the elite tour with the newly approved broomheads? Weren't the rule changes supposed to stop or discourage this bad-for-TV one-sweeper directional sweeping? Or maybe one-sweeper directional sweeping is good for TV and the game in general?

Any studies out there to show the impact on the stones' trajectory and distance with just pressure/heat v. scratch-theory directional abrasions?

Goldline is telliing me, a mixed league hack, now not to buy any of these new brooms. They are as useful as no broom for me they say! I guess this means for best results I should use my "illegal" 2015 Hardline and work harder on directional sweeping. And/or, perhaps for better results, use my metallic foil insert 2011 pad and keep it as dirty as possible for more abrasive effects!

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:

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Originally posted by Alice
Have only watched this season video of the Mixed Worlds. Saw a couple of teams with just one sweeper sweeping. Is that happening this season also on the elite tour with the newly approved broomheads? Weren't the rule changes supposed to stop or discourage this bad-for-TV one-sweeper directional sweeping? Or maybe one-sweeper directional sweeping is good for TV and the game in general?

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Registered: Oct 2012
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My understanding of the Summit results was that the Norway pad compared to Hardline was considerably less effective when it came to scratching the ice. Remember how Muirhead felt the Norway pads were a disadvantage compared to other brushes?

I still think the manufacturers are planning to produce only WCF material brush pads for their entire line of their products. This year and next they have to try and balance the sales of existing inventory or face obsolete product.

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Registered: Nov 2004
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Standardize this debacle (broom head) and sweeping technique right across the board, or watch curling regress further. It's become a dog and pony show.
The future of Curling depends on viewership, and the vast majority of the non-curling public who curling depend on, don't understand this phenomena whatsoever.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dks
I still think the manufacturers are planning to produce only WCF material brush pads for their entire line of their products. This year and next they have to try and balance the sales of existing inventory or face obsolete product.

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I think that this message has no evil intended message trying to get people to buy old stock. I will try to explain. While the handful of us on this thread are really into curling and the fine details, many people in the club just enjoy curling and don’t care. Sure they may have noticed while watching curling last season that there was only 1 sweeper and wondered why, but they didn’t really give it too much thought.

To me, this message is intended for the curlers like these. It is to let them know that they may not want to buy the high end equipment. As an example, I play tennis, but haven’t bought a new racket for probably 7 years or longer. The other day I decided that I wanted to get a new racket, but since I was so far removed from the racket technology game, I basically looked up what rackets were used by a handful of top pros, and then started my shopping from that point. I assumed that if a racket was good enough for Roger Federer or Rafael Nadal, it would be good enough for me. Anyway, I found about 5 models used by pros, and started my comparison shopping there. To me this is a very sound purchasing logic for sports equipment. However, if I had done this with curling, I would actually be buying a product that was compliant with elite rules, but actually performed worse. So to me, this GL statement has no nefarious intent, it is intended to just inform customers who are not super in to curling. What are they informing them of. Basically tell them, look these replacement heads that are tour approved might be the most expensive, and you may think that is what you really want, but unless you really need them, you would probably be better off buying the older style ones.

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

quote:

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Originally posted by curlky
I'm going to set teh Over/Under for number of posts until Jamcan finds a way to turn this thread into one about sweeping technique not equipment at 4.5. And I'm going to take the under.

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I work at Goldline and helped to publish that notice. I appreciate the support from those of you who have correctly interpreted our intent, and I apologize on behalf of Goldline to anyone who felt insulted. That was definitely not what we intended to do.

A number of you are correct in identifying the fact that we simply want to provide guidance to the huge number of recreational curlers for whom this entire controversy is a non issue. It would be really unfortunate if a club decided to ban everything but WCF approved product forcing novice curlers to use equipment that is more expensive, not designed for them and will ultimately hurt their game.

For those of you who are proficient enough to be able to directionally sweep with something like a Norway, then by all means please do what is in keeping with the spirit of the game and use WCF certified products.

I'm around if you guys have any questions!

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Registered: Apr 2014
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quote:

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Originally posted by curlky

To me, this message is intended for the curlers like these. It is to let them know that they may not want to buy the high end equipment. As an example, I play tennis, but haven’t bought a new racket for probably 7 years or longer. The other day I decided that I wanted to get a new racket, but since I was so far removed from the racket technology game, I basically looked up what rackets were used by a handful of top pros, and then started my shopping from that point. I assumed that if a racket was good enough for Roger Federer or Rafael Nadal, it would be good enough for me. Anyway, I found about 5 models used by pros, and started my comparison shopping there. To me this is a very sound purchasing logic for sports equipment.

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Last edited by On The Nose on 10-27-16 at 01:42AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by PeterDTown
I work at Goldline and helped to publish that notice. I appreciate the support from those of you who have correctly interpreted our intent, and I apologize on behalf of Goldline to anyone who felt insulted. That was definitely not what we intended to do.

A number of you are correct in identifying the fact that we simply want to provide guidance to the huge number of recreational curlers for whom this entire controversy is a non issue. It would be really unfortunate if a club decided to ban everything but WCF approved product forcing novice curlers to use equipment that is more expensive, not designed for them and will ultimately hurt their game.

For those of you who are proficient enough to be able to directionally sweep with something like a Norway, then by all means please do what is in keeping with the spirit of the game and use WCF certified products.

I'm around if you guys have any questions!

---

__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Last edited by On The Nose on 10-27-16 at 01:34AM

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Registered: Nov 2012
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quote:

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Originally posted by On The Nose


Ok... since you invited questions, here is a rather basic one which has been the theme of a few posts in this thread...

Beyond the stock you currently hold, does Goldline plan on continuing to sell brush heads which are not WCF approved/certified?
That is, will Goldline be selling brush heads other than the ones which are WCF approved/certified over the course of, say, the next 5 curling seasons?

Please answer honestly and clearly - with a 'yes', a 'no', or a 'perhaps' - with an explanation attached to the 'perhaps'.

Thanks

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• Per our release we do not believe that the compliant pads are necessarily ideal for novice curlers
  
• Notwithstanding the above point, we recognize that many club managers and event organizers are already gravitating towards mandating use of WCF certified pads regardless of not only our recommendation but also alternatives that may present themselves (see below).
  
• We also understand that in all sports there is a strong tendency for recreational players to want to use what the top players are using, regardless of any other factors.
  
• The WCF approval process for new technology is already delaying new innovative products from gaining certification. These products are built to the new specs but aren't yet approved. Should they be allowed in the recreational market? Should all manufacturers halt production until the WCF is able to provide approval?
  
• The WCF specification is extremely narrow, mandating not only a specific fabric, but a specific fabric from a specific distributor (not a specific manufacturer), in a specific colour, and tracked and approved in such a way that drives up costs and significantly delays production.
  
• We are already making products that comply with all elements of the spec with the exception of the fabric. The only difference with the fabric is that we have sourced it independently and we are providing it in a variety of colours. It has been evaluated and tested and shown to perform in an identical fashion to the certified material, but it is more readily available, more pleasing to the consumer market and less expensive. Additionally, our ultimate hope with such a product would be to provide real world usage data to the WCF with the intention of working towards an expanded specification. Incidentally, the WCF fully supports and encourages this approach. Should we abandon such efforts and focus only on supplying "certified products?"
  

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Registered: Mar 2009
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Excellent response from Goldline, it is good to hear the Norway as is will probably go away soon for a longer lasting, version of a acceptable fabric that does not damage the ice.

It would be great to have Hardline and Balance Plus give us as equally upfront state of the union on their current status.

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Registered: Oct 2012
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Posts: 119

I see Goldline is advertising their new Air brushes. I haven't noticed any sponsored teams using the new heads. Are they approved and if so, why aren't teams using them?

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Registered: Apr 2014
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Posts: 608

quote:

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Originally posted by PeterDTown

You know, that is really a fantastic question and I really wish I had a crystal ball and I could answer it very clearly for you. Since it is literally impossible give a straight yes/no at this point in time what I'll do is give you some insight into the factors at play in making that decision.

First of all you should know that our guiding principle in all of this is trying to do what is within the spirit of the new regulations. More specifically, we agree with the idea that the result of sweeping should be to make the rock go straighter and further, and any other guiding of the rock is undesirable.

Other points of consideration:

• Per our release we do not believe that the compliant pads are necessarily ideal for novice curlers
  
• Notwithstanding the above point, we recognize that many club managers and event organizers are already gravitating towards mandating use of WCF certified pads regardless of not only our recommendation but also alternatives that may present themselves (see below).
  
• We also understand that in all sports there is a strong tendency for recreational players to want to use what the top players are using, regardless of any other factors.
  
• The WCF approval process for new technology is already delaying new innovative products from gaining certification. These products are built to the new specs but aren't yet approved. Should they be allowed in the recreational market? Should all manufacturers halt production until the WCF is able to provide approval?
  
• The WCF specification is extremely narrow, mandating not only a specific fabric, but a specific fabric from a specific distributor (not a specific manufacturer), in a specific colour, and tracked and approved in such a way that drives up costs and significantly delays production.
  
• We are already making products that comply with all elements of the spec with the exception of the fabric. The only difference with the fabric is that we have sourced it independently and we are providing it in a variety of colours. It has been evaluated and tested and shown to perform in an identical fashion to the certified material, but it is more readily available, more pleasing to the consumer market and less expensive. Additionally, our ultimate hope with such a product would be to provide real world usage data to the WCF with the intention of working towards an expanded specification. Incidentally, the WCF fully supports and encourages this approach. Should we abandon such efforts and focus only on supplying "certified products?"
  

I could go on, but I hope that this is enough to at least give a glimpse into the challenges we are facing. We want to innovate and provide new products. We want to do so while working within the guiding principles outlined by the WCF and in keeping with the spirit of the game. We also recognize that it is early days and we don't know what the market is going to want.

At the end of the day, Goldline is in the business of supplying curling supplies that people want to use. Whether that means Norway pads (probably not), WCF pads (this seems too restrictive) or something in between (most likely) is ultimately going to be dictated by curlers. No matter what happens we will continue to make great products that curlers of all levels will be happy to use.

I hope that provides you with a satisfactory answer to your question.

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"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:

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Originally posted by dks
I see Goldline is advertising their new Air brushes. I haven't noticed any sponsored teams using the new heads. Are they approved and if so, why aren't teams using them?

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Registered: Nov 2012
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quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry


The Air Brush is the product not yet approved by the WCF that Peter was talking about above. It uses the Nylon 420D Fabric, but from an independent supplier. It is waiting for approval from the WCF.

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Registered: Nov 2012
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quote:

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Originally posted by On The Nose


Thanks for your response.

You say that Goldline, as a company, agrees that the effect of sweeping should be to take the rock further and straighter, and nothing else. Ok.
You also say that Goldline wishes to “innovate and provide new products”. If this statement is in reference to equipment other than brooms, I’ve not much to say about it. But if you are saying that you want to innovate and provide new products with regards to brooms - and perhaps more specifically, brush heads -, I see a possible contradiction here - because we saw where innovation and providing new products took curling last season. I think you’ll agree that the huge majority of curlers and curling administrators don’t want to go down that road again.
And so I’m wondering how any company can innovate and provide new products - with regards to brooms - without messing things up as they were last season. We already have brooms (and brush heads) which will take a rock further and straighter. How much further and how much straighter do we want to go? And I can’t imagine broom shafts being much lighter than they are now. It would seem to me, then, that any innovation in the area of brooms - and brush heads in particular - runs the risk of travelling down the same unfortunate path as last season.

It would be nice if curling could maintain its relative innocence. By this, I mean having manufacturers of curling equipment stop trying to constantly ‘push the envelope’ with what they like to call ‘innovation’, and simply be content with ensuring that the current equipment - which is fine - be made to high standards of quality.
Otherwise, curling risks going down the ridiculous path that tennis has taken, where racquet models are replaced every 2 or 3 years with models the racquet companies spend millions telling us are ‘better’ than the model they’re replacing (“more power and control”), when in fact the new models are not better at all (and do not offer more power or control) - they are not better, they are simply different. They may be ‘better’ in terms of the racquet companies being able to spend less to manufacture them, and thus reap more financial profit... but they are not better for the consumer.
The cell phone market suffers from this same ridiculous ‘planned obsolescence’, which is nothing more than companies trying to convince people that the model (whether it’s a tennis racquet, a cell phone, or what have you) which 2 years ago was wonderful and ‘the best ever’, etc. is now, a mere 2 years later, old and pathetic and in desperate need of replacement.
I don’t want curling to go there, as it’s not a respectable path to travel.

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Registered: Feb 2011
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My issue with the Goldline statement is mostly in the first paragraph, which is a strained and self-serving misinterpretation of the WCF position.

The rest of the statement I think is fine, although parts are perhaps without any real evidence so far. But you only have one chance at a first impression, as they say.

Goldline claims "[The WCF statement] suggested that WCF certified pads only be used when prizes of value were at stake."

This is a bizarre interpretation of the WCF statement, when a straightforward interpretation of the clear and direct meaning of the words used would be the following:

1. The WCF does not directly regulate non-WCF competitions. (Implied in this statement is that technical restrictions on brushes are regulations that are up to the competition authority and not rules for general play which the WCF does control to some extent.)

2. The WCF doesn't think it's fair to force everyone to throw out everything they have.

3. So, they suggest that competition authorities and curlers themselves consider what's at stake and their own abilities when deciding what brushes to use.

Perhaps the WCF would be delighted for everyone to use only certified materials. Who knows. They didn't make any comment about that. They certainly never suggested that the approved fabric only be used in high stakes games.

It's also not supported with any evidence that the new fabric is useless in the hands on a non-elite curler. How could this possibly be known at this point? Only a small number of non-elite curlers have maybe been using the fabric for literally a few days and I'm pretty sure no study of its effects have been undertaken.

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