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06-20-19 01:43PM
applecurl is offline Click Here to See the Profile for applecurl Click here to Send applecurl a Private Message Find more posts by applecurl Add applecurl to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
applecurl
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 17

Another Toronto Club closing

Sadly St George's Curling Club has announced this will be the last season of curling.

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06-20-19 05:11PM
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curlerbroad
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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
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Very bad news. There is a group trying to get another club built, just need some investors

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06-20-19 06:15PM
Manitoba Legend is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Manitoba Legend Click here to Send Manitoba Legend a Private Message Find more posts by Manitoba Legend Add Manitoba Legend to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Manitoba Legend
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How many sheets of curling will be lost in the closure?

How many members registered during last few seasons?

Did the club have any ancillary revenues other than curling? (ie. bar, concessions, non-seasonal rentals, etc.)

Is the land (and building(s) on which the club is built owned by a board, an individual, a conglomerate or other?

What is the potential yield from the sale of the land (market value)?

Is the area where this club exists suitable for commercial, residential or perhaps mixed-use development?

Do the current members have any financial stake in the land & building (club assets, too)?

How will the money garnered by the sale of the property be divvied up after all debts & obligations are paid?

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06-20-19 06:34PM
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2299

It is a golf & country club...

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07-13-19 01:51AM
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duct_tape
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
How many sheets of curling will be lost in the closure?

How many members registered during last few seasons?

Did the club have any ancillary revenues other than curling? (ie. bar, concessions, non-seasonal rentals, etc.)

Is the land (and building(s) on which the club is built owned by a board, an individual, a conglomerate or other?

What is the potential yield from the sale of the land (market value)?

Is the area where this club exists suitable for commercial, residential or perhaps mixed-use development?

Do the current members have any financial stake in the land & building (club assets, too)?

How will the money garnered by the sale of the property be divvied up after all debts & obligations are paid?




It's a golf and country club in Toronto's west end. The golfers have been trying to boot the curlers out for years.

There was a vote before last season to close curling which failed by literally a couple votes.

The board's response was to up the number of votes that golf members had, along with slapping a new $1,200 fee onto new members that wanted to join the curling section. I doubt they saw a single new member last year as a result.

So, basically the same story as the now closed Weston G&CC and Scarboro G&CC. The golfers wanted the curlers out, and they got their way.

Luckily all of the standalone clubs in Toronto are very healthy, in fact there's easily enough demand to build another club or two if the money could be found.

I'm the Senior Ice Manager at the Leaside Curling Club, we're located pretty close to midtown Toronto, we crossed 1,100 members last year, and were absolutely packed with rentals. Virtually all of the other stand-alone clubs are either full or close to it as well.

There's two golf and country clubs left in Toronto (Bayview and Donalda), and they are generally pretty supportive of their curling sections, so I don't see a problem there in the short term.

There's a couple other golf clubs not far from the city which have had some rumours swirling around for a few years as well though. So, it's not impossible we'll see one or two more go in the next 10 years, but with any luck we'll start to see some new clubs start popping up again.

The closures aren't due to lack of interest in curling, they're mainly due to golf club politics.

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07-14-19 03:13PM
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Deliverer
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Registered: Nov 2016
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Most folks think it's a good idea
to research the subject matter a wee bit so ya don't end up
asking a whole bunch of asinine
questions .....and then, there's
ML.

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07-16-19 09:26PM
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curlerbroad
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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2299

The vote is in, this is the last year for curling at St George’s

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07-17-19 12:55PM
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Sydney57
Knee-Slider

 

Registered: Apr 2014
Location:
Posts: 8

The vote was very predictable.
Golfer 10 votes.
Social and curler 1

So don't feel surprise.
St-Georges did not want to create an issue until they got the Open in 2020 and 2024 since RBC did not want toe be entangle in protest and the president is a member.

We should put RBC on notice. Great advertising about supporting Canadian athlete but as well let's support private club that eliminate training ground.
St-Georges was the home of many Canadian and world champion.

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07-20-19 10:40AM
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Deliverer
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Considering the fee structure which exists in the most exclusive, ultra-rich golf clubs in the Toronto area, it appears to me that a voting ratio of 10 - 1 is not entirely out-of-line.

While curlers in these clubs could expect annual dues somewhere in the $700 - $1200 range, plus some miscellaneous fees, consider the following typical fee schedule for the well-connected person in the golf world:

Annual Dues: In the $4,000 - $10,000 range, not including the GST.

Food - Beverage Minimums: $100 - $200 per month.

Misc. Fees: $20 - $30 per month. ( club lockers, storage, cleaning etc. )

Initiation Fees: $40,000 - $125,000 ( depending on the type of membership. )

As far as I could determine the initiation fees at St. George's, considered the best private course in Canada, top out around $65,000. Annual club dues are currently $4,250.

And just in case anybody is thinking about joining any of Toronto's most affluent golf clubs, you should be aware that a bundle of money and solid connections alone definitely will not enable you to avoid the typical "waiting list" which could easily be as long as ten ( 10 ) years plus. Even Mike Weir, following his win in the Masters in 2003, had to wait 13 years to secure a membership in Toronto's top private club.

And in case you're wondering, it's the Magna Golf Club which has the $125,000 initiation fee.

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07-21-19 03:37PM
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hogged again
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2019
Location:
Posts: 24

quote:
Originally posted by Deliverer


While curlers in these clubs could expect annual dues somewhere in the $700 - $1200 range, plus some miscellaneous fees



Jeez I guess I better stop whining about the $300 my club charges. 700+ is crazy.

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08-06-19 09:53PM
Manitoba Legend is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Manitoba Legend Click here to Send Manitoba Legend a Private Message Find more posts by Manitoba Legend Add Manitoba Legend to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Manitoba Legend
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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 11885

quote:
Originally posted by duct_tape



It's a golf and country club in Toronto's west end. The golfers have been trying to boot the curlers out for years.

There was a vote before last season to close curling which failed by literally a couple votes.

The board's response was to up the number of votes that golf members had, along with slapping a new $1,200 fee onto new members that wanted to join the curling section. I doubt they saw a single new member last year as a result.

So, basically the same story as the now closed Weston G&CC and Scarboro G&CC. The golfers wanted the curlers out, and they got their way.

Luckily all of the standalone clubs in Toronto are very healthy, in fact there's easily enough demand to build another club or two if the money could be found.

I'm the Senior Ice Manager at the Leaside Curling Club, we're located pretty close to midtown Toronto, we crossed 1,100 members last year, and were absolutely packed with rentals. Virtually all of the other stand-alone clubs are either full or close to it as well.

There's two golf and country clubs left in Toronto (Bayview and Donalda), and they are generally pretty supportive of their curling sections, so I don't see a problem there in the short term.

There's a couple other golf clubs not far from the city which have had some rumours swirling around for a few years as well though. So, it's not impossible we'll see one or two more go in the next 10 years, but with any luck we'll start to see some new clubs start popping up again.

The closures aren't due to lack of interest in curling, they're mainly due to golf club politics.



Thank you for taking time to explain things in layman's language duct_tape.
With your background what would be the estimated cost of building a 6-sheet curling club in the Toronto metro area with reasonable amenities?

A. If the land was donated?
B. If land had to be purchased or leased at market rates?

Winnipeg had 2 such golf/curling clubs (Rossmere, Deer Lodge) but I'm unsure if Deer Lodge CC is affiliated with the 9 hole layout or just located adjacent to the golf club?

Rossmere chewed out the curlers due to "faulty" pipes according to other posters.

Brandon has, I believe one Curling-Golf facility left.

Don't know what Sask'n has but the layout of Sask'n curling is far different - so many 2, 3 & 4-sheeters in small towns & villages throughout their province.

Sad to see curling clubs get short shrift, especially when they're actually performing well - but don't operate at the same "status level" as the golf clubs!

Time for curlers to band up - arrange meetings with the provincial and federal sports ministers and perhaps get the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) involved.

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