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| 03-06-22 04:03PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
Unpopular opinion: the Brier/Scotties should have point handicap system
I found out that in Switzerland, when they have a super-tournament with teams from A division playing against teams from B division, they have point handicap system to make the games more competitive.
https://www.facebook.com/5576295609...75548085819503/
In this photo, red team has 4 points total, even though they only scored 1s in 3 ends. The extra point comes from H, i.e, the handicap.
So, yes, there are point handicap system in place in curling, at least in Switzerland.
In my opinion, the Scotties/Brier could use something like this. Curling Canada is already using some sort of ranking system to even out the two pools by some objective measure. They can do more and implement a point handicap system to make games more competitive.
So, for example, at 2022 Scotties, Nunavut and Yukon finished winless in their pools. For 2023, we can give them 1 point handicap against everyone else. Maybe 3 point handicap against Team Canada.
Of course there is potential risk that a weaker team might end up winning (e.g. who knows if Einarson would win against Andrea Crawford/NB with handicap). So maybe handicap in pool play only, no more handicap once you're in playoff mode.
Thoughts? Opinions? Discuss!
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| 03-06-22 04:18PM |
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decade
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 1962 |
Who would be comfortable winning the Brier knowing that you were given a handicap? There are many ways for teams to improve without diluting the event.
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| 03-06-22 04:29PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by decade
Who would be comfortable winning the Brier knowing that you were given a handicap?
If Nunavut somehow wins the Brier, wouldn't that be a good enough reason to be proud of the accomplishment and celebrate? Even if they're all birthright players with an import skip, and none of them actually live in Nunavut, don't you think the entire province would go celebrate? Wouldn't the rest of Canada be proud as well?
Sure, there may be issues with how they'd do at World Men's, but we can solve that problem some other ways (e.g. winners of Canada Cup go to World Men's/Women's, winners of Scotties/Brier go to Pan-Continental next season after months of preparation).
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| 03-06-22 05:15PM |
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hogged again
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2019
Location:
Posts: 659 |
Why stop with a handicap? Since you want to make a mockery of the game how about not only does Nunavut get a handicap but when they play Gushue we have Gushue flip his lineup with Walker skipping and in even ends he can only throw inturns on one side of the ice while sweeping with a swiffer?
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| 03-06-22 05:26PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by hogged again
a mockery of the game
How does a handicap system make a mockery of the game? There's handicap in golf, archery, and who knows what else.
Here's a quote from National Field Archery Association USA constitution.
https://www.nfaausa.com/wp-content/...NSTITUTION-.pdfquote:
Handicapping is the great equalizer among sportsmen of differing abilities. The National Field Archery Association presents this archery handicap system in the conviction that, when faithfully operated, it results in equitable handicaps no matter where archers live and play.
[...]
The national system of handicapping must meet two main requirements, which are:
* Simple enough for operation by the small, modestly equipped club as well as the largest state association.
* Thorough enough to produce fair, uniform handicapping the country over.
Here's what Archery GB says:
https://www.archerygb.org/shoot-com...tion-handicaps/quote:
The handicap system is a way of adjusting scores to a baseline so that archers with different levels of experience can compete on an equal footing.
That does not sound like mockery to me.
Last edited by curlingclips on 03-06-22 at 05:36PM
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| 03-06-22 05:44PM |
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UnattachedFC
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 240 |
It is a mockery of the game. Sorry, but handicap doesn't work at the highest level like any sport. Could curling use handicap for some bonspiels? Sure.
However, you're starting with a national championship. If the goal of the Brier and Scotties is to crown the best team in the country. Why would you put a handicap? Asking the question is answering it.
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| 03-06-22 05:44PM |
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Statman
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 2011 |
Might work at the club level, But at the championship level, absolutely not.The BEST team should win at that championship level.
Three thumbs down!
__________________
"It's only rock and roll (But we like it!)" Keith and Mick on curling
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| 03-06-22 06:01PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by UnattachedFC
If the goal of the Brier and Scotties is to crown the best team in the country
I'm not sure if we all agree that this is the goal of the Scotties/Brier. Residency requirements suggest that there's something more than just crowning the best team in the country. Before wildcard spots were introduced, some of the best teams in Canada couldn't even play. Even with wildcard spots, Tracy Fleury couldn't play in 2020 Scotties, even though she was ranked #1 in Canada.
There are some who believe that maybe Canada should crown the best teams to go to Worlds via Canada Cup instead, and that Scotties/Brier should go back to grassroot.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/curling/lo...t-back-to-no-1/
ROCK AND A HARD PLACE By Kristina Rutherford
"With the Beijing Olympics underway, Canada’s curling elite are facing an impossible question: Is competing for medals worth risking Canada’s identity in the sport?"
quote:
[Chelsea Carey] wonders about determining the world representative through the Canada Cup, which is a best-on-best between the country’s top-ranked teams.
[Brent Laing] wants to see the Brier and Scotties return to a more amateur level, that might not even see the top teams playing in it.
[Brad Gushue] wonders about skipping an elite team for world level play, and another team at the Brier, bringing in a local player to replace team’s imports. “Then the Brier is a separate event where it’s more about the provinces, and who wins,” he says.
“If your only objective was international medals, you never would have come up with this [Brier/Scotties] model,” [Gerry Peckham] says.
Hence my proposal:
* Canada Cup winners go to Worlds
* Scotties/Brier return to grassroots with strict residency requirements, national handicapping system, etc. No wildcards, single pool, everyone plays everyone, all handshakes between all provinces and territories across Canada. Winner gets funding and support to wear Maple Leaf to represent Canada at Pan-Continental after months of preparation.
Last edited by curlingclips on 03-06-22 at 06:36PM
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| 03-06-22 08:26PM |
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oliviertoisel
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587 |
There is already an amateur national championship. Why would we make the Brier a second one?
The problem is residency. Just let it go with skip's residency being determinative. Problem solved.
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| 03-06-22 08:42PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
The problem is residency. Just let it go with skip's residency being determinative. Problem solved.
There are still more problems:
* How do we make sure that the best teams aren't left out? How many wildcard spots do we need? How many can we tolerate?
* Who do we send out to Pan-Continental? Do we put everything in one basket, so to speak, and have the Brier/Scotties winners wear the Maple Leaf twice with one victory? Or do we take advantage of the depth in Canada and spread out the duty/honor/privilege/opportunity to other teams?
* Are we okay with the fact that this in this event that unites Canada, some teams don't get to play other teams, because they're divided into two partitions by some criteria?
* It has been said that no weak team will ever win the Scotties/Brier, because it will probably be one of the elite teams anyway. If this is the case, then how can we promote growth/interest in provinces/territories when they know they probably won't win?
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| 03-06-22 08:55PM |
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oliviertoisel
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
There are still more problems:
None of the stuff you pointed out is a problem created by the current format. Those are just logistical questions that ANY format addresses.
A problem is writing lengthy posts about maybe the Brier should be an amateur competition when you don't know there already is an amateur national.
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| 03-06-22 09:06PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
None of the stuff you pointed out is a problem created by the current format. Those are just logistical questions that ANY format addresses.
My proposal addresses all of those problems.
* Best teams aren't left out from qualifying process to World Men's and Women's, because we use Canada Cup instead of Scotties/Brier.
* We send winners of Scotties/Brier to Pan-Continental.
* With no wildcard teams at the Scotties/Brier, we can return to single pool round robin format.
* With no elite teams, and with national handicap system, any province/territory can win. Should a weak team somehow wins, they will go through months of preparation to make sure they're ready for Pan-Continental, where they only need to be Top 5 to qualify Canada for World Men's and Women's.
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| 03-06-22 09:13PM |
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MeaghanEdwards
Drawmaster
Registered: Aug 2018
Location:
Posts: 699 |
Please don't give TPTB any more ideas to change the game further.
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| 03-06-22 10:03PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by MeaghanEdwards
Please don't give TPTB any more ideas to change the game further.
Change is the default position for pretty much everything in the world. The best course of action is to make sure that we're heading towards a better future, by making sure that we're making good changes and not bad ones, but just crossing your fingers and hoping that nothing will change simply does not work for pretty much anything.
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| 03-06-22 11:32PM |
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hogged again
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2019
Location:
Posts: 659 |
Your examples are bogus. Yes golf has a handicap system and clubs have handicap tournaments (which the same few sandbaggers win). But does the Masters? Or any other important tournament? No. Does archery use handicap at the Olympics? No.
You are facebook. You post things just to get reaction, you even title it "unpopular opinion". And you get it, but never again from me.
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| 03-07-22 01:20AM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by hogged again
Your examples are bogus.
I admit that I don't know much about golf or archery, but from my understanding, golf just came out with the World Handicap System in 2020, implemented in 116 countries.
https://www.whs.com/articles/2020/R...n-Map-2602.html
Apparently this was a much anticipated, long awaited consolidation of numerous existing handicap systems that had been put in place in various jurisdictions independently of each other. It took a lot of effort to come up with a handicap system that could be used for the entire world.
So, no, there's no handicap system at the Olympics, but it's probably because there's no global handicap system in the first place. USA has a national system, so does GB, but I don't even know if Canada has one.
Maybe eventually archery will follow golf's footsteps and amalgamate all the different systems into one for the world, but until that happens, of course you'd never see a handicap system in use at world championships/Olympics.
As for the Masters, my understanding is that this is more similar to Canada Cup than a Scotties/Brier, i.e. the best against each other, competing as individuals instead of representing provinces/states/countries.
I didn't say that the Canada Cup needs a handicap system. In fact, I would say the exact opposite and say that the Canada Cup does NOT need a handicap system.
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| 03-07-22 08:43AM |
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oliviertoisel
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587 |
Unpopular opinion: quickly googlings things you know nothing about just to argue with people is rude and embarrassing.
You clearly have no idea how handicaps are used in sport and that knowledge gap completely negates the entire point you're trying to make. You also seem to lack knowledge about the difference between semi-pro and amateur curling. Or golf. You don't even seem to realize there is a national amateur championship in Canada.
I'm strongly against the "you don't curl" or "you're not Canadian" arguments because they're stupid but in this case you are ignorant.
It's time you stop making threads for attention and start listening and reading more before speaking.
And you're now on mute for me.
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| 03-07-22 09:09AM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
Seems pretty obvious that curlingclips have anointed themselves the new Manitoba Legend/Fresca in terms of just sheer volume of posts.
You should post some of you ideas as thread starters on Inside Curling Podcast Group on Facebook.
You might actually make Warren and Kevin's anti-CCA rants look somewhat rational... 😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆
😆😆😆
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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| 03-07-22 11:48AM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
You also seem to lack knowledge about the difference between semi-pro and amateur curling.
The whole point I was making is that Scotties/Brier should be farther distinguished from Canada Cup, precisely because one should be semi-pro and the other should return to amateur grassroots.
By saying that they should just open up residency requirements by limiting it only to the skips, you want to see Scotties/Brier drift farther away from amateur and closer to pro, thus "risking Canada's identity in the sport" as Kristina Rutherford wrote in her article.
Chelsea Carey, Brent Laing, and Brad Gushue on the other hand want to see Canadian curling split into 2 separate tracts, so the Scotties/Brier can return to grassroots and become amateur-only. Brad Gushue agrees, hence why he said he would skip two different teams, an elite slam team to go against Edin/Mouat and a separate NL provincial team for the Brier.
So I agree with you that handicapping does not belong in semi-pro, and it only belongs in amateur, hence why I'm also saying that the Brier should become amateur.
------------------------------
In other words, I do know the difference between red and green. The problem is that you're saying X should be green. I'm saying X should be red, and we can have Y be green instead.
quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
You don't even seem to realize there is a national amateur championship in Canada.
Would you say that to Brent Laing, who "wants to see the Brier and Scotties return to a more amateur level, that might not even see the top teams playing in it"?
Would you say that to Brad Gushue, who "wonders about skipping an elite team for world level play, and another team at the Brier", that he can just skip his secondary team at this existing national amateur championship instead?
(quotes are from ROCK AND A HARD PLACE by Kristina Rutherford)
https://www.sportsnet.ca/curling/lo...t-back-to-no-1/
Last edited by curlingclips on 03-07-22 at 12:17PM
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| 03-12-22 04:49PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
Mike McEwen recently chimed in, and he also suggested the creation of a 2-tier system.
https://torontosun.com/sports/curli...hanges-to-brier
quote:
Others [e.g. Mike McEwen] support more radical ideas, including one that would see the creation of a two-tiered system that keeps the traditions of the Brier to help younger curlers and those smaller curling provinces, while giving elite curlers an avenue to focus more on becoming the best in the world.
[...]
His thought is, you take your top seven or eight CTRS teams, and have them play a separate event to determine who is going to battle at the world championships for Canada.
Those top-tier teams would not play in the Brier and Scotties and would not be subjected to any kind of provincial residency rules — essentially they would have an opportunity to form using players from anywhere in the country.
I find it odd that none of these people have been talking about Pan-Continental at all. I understand that this event is new, just created this year, and Canada has never faced anything like it until now, but I think it comes at the perfect time to facilitate a long-overdue 2-tier system in Canada.
Key facts:
* Canada probably needs a 2-tier system
* Curling Canada has already produce 2 TV events for TSN every year (Brier/Scotties and Canada Cup/Trials)
* Now in 2022, WCF created a 2-tier system that Canada has to go through every year
It all fits in so perfectly!
In any case, even if you argue against this particular proposal, I still want to hear who people think should represent Canada at Pan-Continental. I just don't understand why no one is talking about this.
As a qualifier to Worlds, it's a very important event. It would be nothing short of a disaster if Canada somehow fails to qualify to World Men's/Women's. However, such disaster would also be highly unlikely, given the history of the teams that will play in Pan-Continental (i.e. no Europeans).
Such an exciting unique opportunity, and yet people have ignored it. I just don't understand.
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| 03-12-22 05:13PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
At the very least the Pan-Continental is an exciting opportunity for a new TV event. Maybe TSN should add it to the Season of Champions, or maybe CBC can buy the rights. The worst thing Canada can do is ignore it and not televise it and just leave it on YouTube/Recast.
The 2 time that Canada's spot at World Men's was challenged, TV basically ignored it. Glenn Howard did get some brief air time in 2018, but only because the games were played alongside Continental Cup, which is already a TV event. Brendan Bottcher in 2021 didn't get a single mention anywhere on air, as far as I can tell.
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| 03-29-22 12:31PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
2 Girls and a Game podcast talked about McEwen's 18-1 score vs Nunavut, and proposed using an interesting point handicap system.
https://2girlsandagame.libsyn.com/o...-at-the-brier-0 (around ~56m in)
Mary Chilvers said that her league in Ontario uses a handicap system where instead of just giving freebie points to the weaker team at the start of a game, they get extra points when they score instead.
I like that idea a lot! I think we can take that idea and make things even more interesting by giving Nunavut a 2x score multiplier (i.e. they gets 2 points on the scoreboard for every scoring rock).
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| 03-29-22 12:58PM |
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lixit74
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 38 |
I get what you're saying, but I think you need to ask yourself, why do we need a handicap? if you're watching the PGA, you want to watch the best playing the best & the best man wins. I don't want to watch a golfer with a 20 handicap beat a golfer with a 1 handicap... It just isn't good entertainment value for me. Handicaps would even the playing field for sure, but is this really the goal?
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| 03-29-22 01:01PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
It’s fine for the Tuesday night beer league at the club but not a national championship
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CurlingZone > Chat Forums > General Curling Chat > Rock Talk > Unpopular opinion: the Brier/Scotties should have point handicap system
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