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Morris v Jacobs B side game in the Prairie Classic - Jacobs takes three, Morris takes three, Jacobs takes four!

What these guys doing? If Gunnlaughson was playing I'd guess they were playing their own private skins game for big bucks......lol..... But since he isn't I'm not sure what the heck is going on here.

The biggest difference between the top five and the next ten teams is that the top five are really hard to score a deuce on and pretty much never give up more than that.

The top five in my estimation -

Howard
McEwen
Stoughton
Koe.
Jacobs

I've got Howard on top cause they led the 2 year CTRS, won two slams last year, and were the best team at the Brier last year until the 10th end of the 1-2 semi. The collapse they experienced after that would have shredded many teams. To their credit they instead rebounded to win the Player's. Last week they also beat McEwen in the Stu Sells Final. That said the difference amongst the top five is miniscule and I can't any team going on the kind of run we used to see from Russ, Kevin, and Wayne where they pretty much never lost.

Martin falling out of the top five happened so gradually that no one really noticed until Morris left.

It started with not getting to the Brier and ended with not winning any Slams. I do think the Nedohin for Morris exchange was at worse a wash and maybe even an upgrade in terms of team chemistry. We shall see.

Cotter on the other hand should be a lot stronger. Whether that is enough to launch them into the top five we'll see at the first Slam and the pre-trials. If they qualify at the Slam and gain a spot at the pre-trials they would be my dark horse pick to do a Mike Harris. I.e. Win the trials when nobody expected it. I've long expected Cotter do some damage at the Brier, and he has. But it's always been to himself.....lol........

Jacobs and Morris should win the pre-trials but it's curling. Which we all know means that if you are the better team you will make the playoffs but it don't guarantee winning 'em.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JB42
Morris v Jacobs B side game in the Prairie Classic - Jacobs takes three, Morris takes three, Jacobs takes four!

What these guys doing? If Gunnlaughson was playing I'd guess they were playing their own private skins game for big bucks......lol..... But since he isn't I'm not sure what the heck is going on here.

The biggest difference between the top five and the next ten teams is that the top five are really hard to score a deuce on and pretty much never give up more than that.

The top five in my estimation -

Howard
McEwen
Stoughton
Koe.
Jacobs

I've got Howard on top cause they led the 2 year CTRS, won two slams last year, and were the best team at the Brier last year until the 10th end of the 1-2 semi. The collapse they experienced after that would have shredded many teams. To their credit they instead rebounded to win the Player's. Last week they also beat McEwen in the Stu Sells Final. That said the difference amongst the top five is miniscule and I can't any team going on the kind of run we used to see from Russ, Kevin, and Wayne where they pretty much never lost.

Martin falling out of the top five happened so gradually that no one really noticed until Morris left.

It started with not getting to the Brier and ended with not winning any Slams. I do think the Nedohin for Morris exchange was at worse a wash and maybe even an upgrade in terms of team chemistry. We shall see.

Cotter on the other hand should be a lot stronger. Whether that is enough to launch them into the top five we'll see at the first Slam and the pre-trials. If they qualify at the Slam and gain a spot at the pre-trials they would be my dark horse pick to do a Mike Harris. I.e. Win the trials when nobody expected it. I've long expected Cotter do some damage at the Brier, and he has. But it's always been to himself.....lol........

Jacobs and Morris should win the pre-trials but it's curling. Which we all know means that if you are the better team you will make the playoffs but it don't guarantee winning 'em.

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I think you are right and that the change will be good for Martin. Morris - obviously - left because he wasn't enjoying playing Vice for Martin. And he had to be not enjoying quite a lot given what he was giving up by not waiting a year. The sponsorship money this team gets, the automatic bid to the Trials. Playing with probably the best front end in the game. The only one I can remember that was as good is Corner and Middaugh playing for Russ and Glen. Savill and Laing have every bit as good a record for sure but are the sweepers the other duos were in terms of pure power at least.

Will the change be good for Morris? Well one positive is that he does I believe think of himself as a skip and now he's back to skipping. And let's remember he made a Brier Finals as skip. Losing to Nedohin just to add a further bit of texture to the story:-)

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The FINAL 8 in Portage represents a mirror of what the Roar of the Trials will be like. Virtue still has to secure a spot but he's been slaughtering a ton of good men. Gushue is absent.

Of course the Portage FINAL 8 is now a win or out affair.

But the matchups are brilliant and the potential ones in semis and final even better.

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Originally posted by Unregistered1
The FINAL 8 in Portage represents a mirror of what the Roar of the Trials will be like. Virtue still has to secure a spot but he's been slaughtering a ton of good men. Gushue is absent.

Of course the Portage FINAL 8 is now a win or out affair.

But the matchups are brilliant and the potential ones in semis and final even better.

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can they win the whole thing here? well they've proven they can beat almost all of these teams so i guess its possible.

misty1

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if Virtue were to win every game til april including brier and worlds it is in my opinion not right that you should not be able to qualify for Sochi under the current system

the wiegt given to three years of success to 6 teams and similarly to another 8 teams gives too much advantagous to a 14 teams and is unfair to youg teams

not a big deal and the world wont end .... just a thought

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Hell of a playoff field at the Prairie Classic.

Koe v Jacobs

Howard v Morris

Virtue v Kean

McEwen v Stoughton

Aside from the richness of the field it is evenly divided between the old guard and the young lions.

I figure Morris/Cotter and Koe/Simmons should be classed as the old guard.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
if Virtue were to win every game til april including brier and worlds it is in my opinion not right that you should not be able to qualify for Sochi under the current system

the wiegt given to three years of success to 6 teams and similarly to another 8 teams gives too much advantagous to a 14 teams and is unfair to youg teams

not a big deal and the world wont end .... just a thought

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these QF look like they are really great, its o bad we cant see them. however 2 are going to an extra end and virtue/kean are tied at 3 in 8. Its to bad it looks like jeff fell behind mcewen early

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SF set. Id like to see virtue v.s koe in the final but i have a feeling it will be howard/mcewen

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This makes McEwen 16 - 7 over Stoughton. That's quite a bit of dominance.

It seems to me if any team is going to do the impossible,i.e. dominate during this golden age of curling. It's gonna be the McEwen rink. The fact that they haven't made the Brier yet is a bit on the bizarre side given the fact they have Stoughton's number 2 out of every 3.

I know it's never going to happen but the Slams need to be seen for what they are. I.e. Way more difficult to win than the Brier and the World's. Even the Olympic Trials ain't as hard as their is only 7 other teams that can beat you there. Whereas in the Grand Slam there's a good 10 or 12. E.g. Virtue in this spiel beat Howard and Jacobs. Kean knocked out Jacobs, etc.

Further evidence. Stoughton's won 1 GS one since 2007. Ferbey/Nedohin won only three in their career. Koe's only got 1. Whereas McEwen's already got 2 and regularly qualifies A side.

Once Howard, Stoughton, and Martin go, they may well pile up comparable numbers to the best ever.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JB42
This makes McEwen 16 - 7 over Stoughton. That's quite a bit of dominance.

It seems to me if any team is going to do the impossible,i.e. dominate during this golden age of curling. It's gonna be the McEwen rink. The fact that they haven't made the Brier yet is a bit on the bizarre side given the fact they have Stoughton's number 2 out of every 3.

I know it's never going to happen but the Slams need to be seen for what they are. I.e. Way more difficult to win than the Brier and the World's. Even the Olympic Trials ain't as hard as their is only 7 other teams that can beat you there. Whereas in the Grand Slam there's a good 10 or 12. E.g. Virtue in this spiel beat Howard and Jacobs. Kean knocked out Jacobs, etc.

Further evidence. Stoughton's won 1 GS one since 2007. Ferbey/Nedohin won only three in their career. Koe's only got 1. Whereas McEwen's already got 2 and regularly qualifies A side.

Once Howard, Stoughton, and Martin go, they may well pile up comparable numbers to the best ever.

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kitchener will come down to 4 teams ... all first class , two games will send to teams to Winnipeg that will be on a high and well tuned up ...

in Winnipeg all 8 teams would be great reps for Sochi ... final will be one of the old guard and "the hot team" ..... either can beat either ... 5th end will decide the outcome ...

i hope this helps ....

would kevin be old guard or a hot shot ?

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I don't know, kevin isn't much older then mike so I don't think you can fairly call koe the old guard..he's not a young gun either though

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Originally posted by Unregistered
I don't know, kevin isn't much older then mike so I don't think you can fairly call koe the old guard..he's not a young gun either though

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Originally posted by CURLER1


Kevin was born in 1966, Mike in 1980. I would say a bit of an age difference.

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I still think the scariest "MONSTER" at the Roar will be B Jacobs & Co. Jacobs has really merged his power game with a ton of finesse and his comprehension of the game exceeds all but the masters (Martin, Howard)..... the addition of Ryan Fry has really tormented many teams as Fry can not only shoot with some power, he can do the 'trickster' stuff, too.

Jeff is over 50 now and starting to lose more frequently than ever. SOme of his so-called easy wins turn into extra-end marathons.

Never underestimate K Koe but its a different team with Pat at third.

Gushue will show his fine wares but will start pressing as the week progresses.

Martin is a pure criminal mastermind of curling. One can only wait to see what mayhem he'll unleash on the field w/ Nedohin working 3rd stones.

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Got a little bit of a problem with promoting Virtue to the Roar qualifying. He had a great run in the Prairie.

So did Shuster. Beat Edin (Current World Champion), lost to Koe (2010 Canadian and World Champion), lost to Stoughton (2011 Canadian and World Champion), lost to Howard (2012 Canadian and World Champion). Seriously bad karma in who he ended having to play.

Going into this week's fun and games, Virtue was ranked 39th in the OOM list. 31 Canadian teams had scored more YTD points than Virtue. 5 of which where lower in the standings.

DA MAN to win the Roar of the Rings, let alone the 2014 Olympics. Hard to see that. Very hard. One competition does not equate to an entire season. And he didn't make it to the CF.

Mark

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Still wondering about McEwen and Koe ages. Which was correct? Congratulations to McEwen, they were having problems with finals.

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Congrats to Team McEwen! Playing awesome as usual.

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quote:

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Originally posted by pontchartrain
Got a little bit of a problem with promoting Virtue to the Roar qualifying. He had a great run in the Prairie.

So did Shuster. Beat Edin (Current World Champion), lost to Koe (2010 Canadian and World Champion), lost to Stoughton (2011 Canadian and World Champion), lost to Howard (2012 Canadian and World Champion). Seriously bad karma in who he ended having to play.

Going into this week's fun and games, Virtue was ranked 39th in the OOM list. 31 Canadian teams had scored more YTD points than Virtue. 5 of which where lower in the standings.

DA MAN to win the Roar of the Rings, let alone the 2014 Olympics. Hard to see that. Very hard. One competition does not equate to an entire season. And he didn't make it to the CF.

Mark

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Originally posted by Unregistered


For me its more than just this week though. He performed very well at the brier. sure he finished 5-6 but in that he beat brad Jacobs and jean-Michel menard and ran kevin, glen and jeff for some of their tightest games outside of eachother.

then in a span of only 2 weeks he's jumped from 59 to 27 in the world and in that time beaten 4 of the teams that will be at the roar/road to the roar and should have beaten martin in that final last week(had a shot to win, lost on a measure)

im not saying he should be promoted in, I agree he's missed his chance. however im saying I don't think that the entry list should have been made until the end of this October

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Mike mcewens conquest of Howard's Ducks last nite has to be one his most satisfying - EVER! Personally, I think mm might be a more viable threat than Jeff Stoughton. If he fails to take the duke I suspect he.ll be a raging threat at this years brier. Stoughton will prolly ride into the sunset if he fails in Wpg. Then again Jeff might ask his charges to make 1 final go at a Brier - a record 4th...

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This thread has inspired a rant over how quickly we forget where the current system comes from.

Forget this year's cycle for a moment. The best example to illustrate one-hit wonder at a pre-trials is Jay Peachey. At the time, the system was set up to reward the top teams at the Brier, as it was our National Championship. As Team Ferbey won almost all Briers in that span, they had to go down the list further than they expected. Team Peachey was only a 3rd place finisher in one particular Brier. Also, this Brier was in one of the years that most top men's teams boycotted the playdowns/Brier in favour of the WCT. So, the Peachey rink never had to beat the best teams to qualify.

It was clear at the time that better teams had been left on the sidelines because of the way the system was set up, because #1 it didn't incorporate the spiels where the best teams were playing, and #2 (more relevant to this thread's suggestions) it did not factor in success over a relevant enough period of time.

The current system is designed to accept that the top curling is on the World Curling Tour. Here in Canada, that is an absolute fact. Further, the process still adequately incorporates the playdowns/Brier into the qualification system as if they were WCT bonspiels, using the same Strength of Field multipliers (i.e. Brier points = major event points, provincials subject to same SFM formula).

Next, because the new system aimed to reward success over a relevant period of time, the system defined well in advance the applicable time periods for teams wishing to represent Canada at the Olympics. More simply, they clearly set a defined qualification period to every curler in the country, and they stuck to it. Everyone in the country knew the rules and had plenty of time to adapt to them.

As a further olive branch, the new system introduced a pre-trials, as a buffer that even more teams could still qualify through, even if they didn't have the benefit of the whole qualification period, or play quite as often as the top teams, or etcetera.

In all, 18 teams now have a shot as of the current qualifying cycle.

To be very frank, at least half of the 18 teams have less than a 1% shot of winning, if we're being realistic. This is in no way meant as an insult - they are ALL capable of doing it - both the opportunity and talent are there. But the point I want to make is there's already more than enough 'long-shots' in the mix. For me, to split hairs over which long-shots get in is to ignore the fact that only 8-9 teams realistically have a chance of winning. And even if a 1% team somehow wins it, I'm not sure I want them as my Olympic rep, anyway, because there's no proof they can do it again (Brad Gushue withstanding...kidding!)

Specific to teams not in the final 18 (such as Brock Virtue's team mentioned on this thread), they (or an acceptable combination of their members) did not achieve the required success during the clearly specified time period to qualify. Sure, there are a handful of teams not at the trials who could have some success if they were there. But that's not the point.

The point is we have a system that qualifies deserving teams based on clear rules set out well in advance of a relevant qualifying period. The system had a high (not perfect, but very high) degree of fairness, and most importantly it was clear to everyone. So, I don't think anyone can have any complaints about either the teams who qualified or the system that got them there (beyond very fine tuning, which I'm sure will occur for the next cycle).

However, let's play devil's advocate a little further. Imagine a one time spiel produced a qualifier. In fact, don't imagine, it already EXISTS. It's called the 2012 Canada Cup. And yes, you have to qualify for the Canada Cup. But let's recall a very recent scenario where several very unlikely rinks got in.

I believe it was 2010 - a certain number of Canada Cup spots were reserved for the team with the highest CTRS points up to a certain date for that year only, as well as a couple of specific qualifier bonspiels. That year, the junior men's team of Matt Camm qualified, as they went on a crazy hot streak to start the season. Also qualifying were Brent Bawel and Serge Reid. The Camm rink were a very talented young group to be sure (3 of its members are actually in the pre-trials as members of different rinks, and deservedly so), but at the time they were not at the elite level. Reid represented Quebec at a Brier once, failing to qualify for the playoffs. And Bawel, despite being a talented young team with much potential, did not follow up with any notable accomplishments and are no longer together (to my knowledge). Not for lack of talent, these teams finished at the bottom of the standings as expected. But imagine one of them had won it. Do they really deserve an Olympic qualifying spot based on 8 weeks of success, or one or two spiel wins? More importantly, who then misses out on a spot as a result?

As further Devil's advocate - let's imagine a bonspiel that didn't require pre-qualification. Just a straight "last chancer" if you will (even though we already have 12 last chance pre-trials rinks). At that point, every other team has qualified, and won't show up. Or if they did show up, a runner up (or 3rd, 4th, 5th place....etc) would then be the "winner". This last chancer "winner" wouldn't have even had to beat the country's best. And honestly, that brings you right back to a Jay Peachey situation, doesn't it.

In short, any system that rewards one bonspiel, rather than success over a period of time, opens up the door to a random, undeserving team stealing a trials spot, potentially from a clearly deserving team. While you can argue that there are very slight flaws with the current system, it's very VERY good at accomplishing what it is supposed to do: ALL the top teams are there, and plenty enough of good long-shots are in the mix. And it's very clearly defined, very well in advance.

So beyond the very, very fine details, I'm not sure how anyone can make a strong argument against the current system, or the teams that qualified through it. You can rank the teams there, debate who has a chance, but you can't debate the fact that every team, whether there or not, got there fair and square.

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