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02-21-15 02:10PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote: Originally posted by curlky
Alan you quoted me, but your answer really didn't do anything to prove me wrong. He has an outstanding domestic history. He does not have any history of success of being in charge of a team on the world stage. And he really hasn't gotten any closer to the world talent level.
How many Universitades did you win?
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02-21-15 02:25PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote: Originally posted by curlky
Alan you quoted me, but your answer really didn't do anything to prove me wrong. He has an outstanding domestic history. He does not have any history of success of being in charge of a team on the world stage. And he really hasn't gotten any closer to the world talent level.
Isn't the relevant consideration how teams are playing NOW? Shuster is the highest ranking US team on the WCT, Brown 2nd, McCormick 3rd. This parallels results do far in Nat's. This year's body of work. The US men are ranked in the low 20s. All of them. Any of the top 3 US teams could represent us about equally well and all have been to the dance before.
And BTW, Shuster saved our bacon during the last Olympic cycle retaining a spot in an emotionally charged event. Give him some props. He's one of the best we have right now.
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02-21-15 02:26PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Hold on now!
Face Shuster does NOT have an embarrassing record at World events.
His first time skipping at Worlds, he made the tiebreaker game. Only a couple of weird twists that week kept him from the medal stand.
The Olympic Qualifier in Germany last year saved our Olympic bacon. That event (first of its kind) was pressure heretofore unseen in curling. A couple of early losses but his back to the wall and then he was brilliant.
Worlds and Olympics on the front end...World University games against an extremely good field...WCT stops...all he has met with success.
What dims the enthusiasm are two consecutive horrid (yes, horrid...I try to stay positive but I also try to be accurate) Olympic appearances. The first one in BC was some very tight losses early followed by coaching and team troubles that precluded a rebound like he did in Germany. The Sochi was a mountain that no man could climb. The grind to just get there through the pressure cooker of the Qualifier was just too much in the face of that field.
I, for one, choose to remember the Qualifier for which we owe John so very much. I'm going to stay positive. I'm going to predict that Team USA will do well at Worlds this year. Winning this afternoon would be a good start.
Ben Tucker
PS Good point by whomever noted that Shuster's record of building successful teams surpasses anything else we've seen from the HPP. Building a multiteam program, however, is a different cat.
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02-21-15 02:34PM |
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Deez
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 86 |
I will say, it is very strange feeling knowing this game is an exhibition. Kind of a bummer if you ask me. Same with the ladies game. Good game, good comeback by Patti. But still no juice as it were. I understand why it has to be this way, I guess. But to be honest it is pretty lame what the "Championship Final" has turned into these past few years. Oh well.
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02-21-15 02:44PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote: Originally posted by Deez
I will say, it is very strange feeling knowing this game is an exhibition. Kind of a bummer if you ask me. Same with the ladies game. Good game, good comeback by Patti. But still no juice as it were. I understand why it has to be this way, I guess. But to be honest it is pretty lame what the "Championship Final" has turned into these past few years. Oh well.
An unfortunate outcome of our new rigged qualification system is that it has tarnished the drama, brand, and marketability of our national championship. In its current state, where the result is often meaningless except to the pride and professionalism of the players,a broadcast entity may be reluctant to pick it up. Too bad because it could be a terrific marketing, fundraising, and recruitment tool for US curling.
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02-21-15 02:47PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote: Originally posted by Deez
I will say, it is very strange feeling knowing this game is an exhibition. Kind of a bummer if you ask me. Same with the ladies game. Good game, good comeback by Patti. But still no juice as it were. I understand why it has to be this way, I guess. But to be honest it is pretty lame what the "Championship Final" has turned into these past few years. Oh well.
I've heard this twice now (once on the women's nationals thread) and still don't understand how a game for national champion is an 'exhibition'. Isn't being a National Champion a goal for anyone else?
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02-21-15 02:49PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote: Originally posted by Flat Hat
I've heard this twice now (once on the women's nationals thread) and still don't understand how a game for national champion is an 'exhibition'. Isn't being a National Champion a goal for anyone else?
not when it doesnt mean anything no. the mens has meaning because the guiy that goes to worlds could win but its already decided so at the same time this really doesnt have meaning. craig brown could win and be national champion but what does that even get him. a sense of pride? im sure he'd like the pride and the trip to worlds
the womens was a joke. the one going to worlds didnt even make the damn final and went 0-2 against the eventual winner. there's no possible way you could argue that the best team is going to worlds on the womens side
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02-21-15 02:50PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote: Originally posted by RockDoc
An unfortunate outcome of our new rigged qualification system is that it has tarnished the drama, brand, and marketability of our national championship. In its current state, where the result is often meaningless except to the pride and professionalism of the players,a broadcast entity may be reluctant to pick it up. Too bad because it could be a terrific marketing, fundraising, and recruitment tool for US curling.
How is it rigged? How many times has the national champion not gone to worlds to make it 'often meaningless'?
I see that you elite curlers have become jaded and no longer believe in the spirit of curling.
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02-21-15 02:55PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote: Originally posted by Flat Hat
I've heard this twice now (once on the women's nationals thread) and still don't understand how a game for national champion is an 'exhibition'. Isn't being a National Champion a goal for anyone else?
When you consider that the *original* definition of Champion was "One appointed to defend one's honor in a duel or competition"...then we aren't appointing our National Champion on the ice currently...we did that yesterday when Shuster hit the button and Brown made the hit.
The Team moving on has already been determined. Hell, there isn't even a guarantee of a dose of HPP money and attention on the line.
So no...it's not the goal anymore.
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02-21-15 03:00PM |
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melz10
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 10 |
quote: Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
I really, really, really hope that Shuster can channel all of the righteous anger he's been working with all season into a strong performance at Worlds.
I think he will. That may be my heart talking over my head, but I want the man to have a medal, he's earned it.
righteous anger? Oh that is the problem we have seen with Shuster since 2010 Olympics embarrassment. Where his non sportsmanship conduct made USA look like fools. And the usca continues to support this bad behavior by not sanctioning him.
He lost the right to compete after that mess and he truly has zero right to the ice if he losses the match today. USA curling has become a disgrace a d joke. It makes figure skating look normal and decent.
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02-21-15 03:05PM |
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melz10
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 10 |
quote: Originally posted by Flat Hat
How is it rigged? How many times has the national champion not gone to worlds to make it 'often meaningless'?
I see that you elite curlers have become jaded and no longer believe in the spirit of curling.
rigged= where you live and how much $$ you have determines how many comps and points you can earn to have an advantage at Nationals versus best team wins moves to next competition. Real spirit of curling is best team wins at current competition moves on.
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02-21-15 03:06PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote: Originally posted by misty1
not when it doesnt mean anything no. the mens has meaning because the guiy that goes to worlds could win but its already decided so at the same time this really doesnt have meaning. craig brown could win and be national champion but what does that even get him. a sense of pride? im sure he'd like the pride and the trip to worlds
the womens was a joke. the one going to worlds didnt even make the damn final and went 0-2 against the eventual winner. there's no possible way you could argue that the best team is going to worlds on the womens side
If Brown wins, I suggest he dash the trophy to the ice and stomp out... that would show them. I get the impression you would be embarrassed to even play in such a meaningless game.
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02-21-15 03:10PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote: Originally posted by melz10
rigged= where you live and how much $$ you have determines how many comps and points you can earn to have an advantage at Nationals versus best team wins moves to next competition. Real spirit of curling is best team wins at current competition moves on.
So this year it's rigged but the other 3 olympics and 2 worlds John's gone to it was ... uh? John's rich, didn't you know pizza makers are rollin' in the dough?
Duluth is the Riviera of the north regards.
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02-21-15 03:10PM |
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brund
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2014
Location:
Posts: 17 |
quote: Originally posted by melz10
righteous anger? Oh that is the problem we have seen with Shuster since 2010 Olympics embarrassment. Where his non sportsmanship conduct made USA look like fools. And the usca continues to support this bad behavior by not sanctioning him.
He lost the right to compete after that mess and he truly has zero right to the ice if he losses the match today. USA curling has become a disgrace a d joke. It makes figure skating look normal and decent.
Think you can do better give it your best shot. If you were watching Canada did the same thing in the last Olympics and nobody said any thing!!!!!!
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02-21-15 03:47PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote: Originally posted by RockDoc
An unfortunate outcome of our new rigged qualification system is that it has tarnished the drama, brand, and marketability of our national championship. In its current state, where the result is often meaningless except to the pride and professionalism of the players,a broadcast entity may be reluctant to pick it up. Too bad because it could be a terrific marketing, fundraising, and recruitment tool for US curling.
Marketing angle seems to be working just fine. Building was full in Philadelphia for the Men's and Women's finals (one of which was pre-determined) and it's full again for the afternoon Men's final.
Curling in America is drawing great ratings as a recorded event with the results available on the internet.
I would suggest the marketing angle isn't the right argument.
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02-21-15 04:17PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote: Originally posted by Gerry
Marketing angle seems to be working just fine. Building was full in Philadelphia for the Men's and Women's finals (one of which was pre-determined) and it's full again for the afternoon Men's final.
Curling in America is drawing great ratings as a recorded event with the results available on the internet.
I would suggest the marketing angle isn't the right argument.
No one is televising the Nat's. Money and exposure is not in the gate--it's in the TV coverage.
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02-21-15 05:01PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
quote: Originally posted by Gerry
Marketing angle seems to be working just fine. Building was full in Philadelphia for the Men's and Women's finals (one of which was pre-determined) and it's full again for the afternoon Men's final.
Curling in America is drawing great ratings as a recorded event with the results available on the internet.
I would suggest the marketing angle isn't the right argument.
Good to see that they can sell tickets in Philly and maybe Kalamazoo and maybe even Jacksonville. But put the event in a traditional curling area and see who comes. The well has been poisoned.
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02-21-15 05:05PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
I'd argue that they didn't even sell well in Kalamazoo....the only draw that was even 1/3 full (judging from the number of empty seats I saw on the webcast) was the finals.
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02-21-15 05:12PM |
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Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Does anybody have a handle on the web numbers...and how many are from outside the US? The "outside" numbers shouldn't be included if you want to judge US interest.
__________________
Jim
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02-21-15 05:29PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
nabobs of negativity aside, Team Shuster did a great job this week. Good luck at Worlds!
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02-21-15 06:36PM |
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Dorycurls
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 33 |
Reading this thread, I became sad. The same people, and maybe a few more have continued to express their disagreement with the new process. I have my own opinion but seeing I will never curl at this level, I will keep that opinion to myself.
What I hate about this discussion is the number of people who by their words are cheapening the meaning of the National Championship for the athletes. I personally know some of these people and have seen the energy, time, money and personal sacrifices they have made to become the National Champs. How do they feel about separating the National Championship winner from the USA rep to the Worlds? I will tell you this...They would not, did not stop trying to win the National title once they did not get enough points. THEY continued their pursuit of the Title.
All of this negativity is just CHEAPENING their pursuit. SHAME on all of you!
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02-21-15 06:43PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote: Originally posted by Dorycurls
Reading this thread, I became sad. The same people, and maybe a few more have continued to express their disagreement with the new process. I have my own opinion but seeing I will never curl at this level, I will keep that opinion to myself.
What I hate about this discussion is the number of people who by their words are cheapening the meaning of the National Championship for the athletes. I personally know some of these people and have seen the energy, time, money and personal sacrifices they have made to become the National Champs. How do they feel about separating the National Championship winner from the USA rep to the Worlds? I will tell you this...They would not, did not stop trying to win the National title once they did not get enough points. THEY continued their pursuit of the Title.
All of this negativity is just CHEAPENING their pursuit. SHAME on all of you!
i think a lot of people just believe that the winners of this championship deserve to go to worlds. i think that these teams put in all this work , they deserve to have that reward3d by having then representing their country.
its not right that erika has to watch aileen go to worlds now and it wasnt fair when nina had to watch alison go last year.
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02-21-15 06:49PM |
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brund
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2014
Location:
Posts: 17 |
Your goal should be to be the world champ. If not stay at the club.
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02-21-15 07:02PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Flat Hat alludes to William Safire/Spiro Agnew "nattering nabobs of negativity". Love it. Disagreed with almost everything Safire ever wrote; but the boy could sure write.
I gotta admit that I felt like Deez. Just not the same level of tension nor excitement for me. I think the same could be said for the teams. Missing was that big emotional "We're Going To Disneyland!" moment. Sure, they were very happy to win...much more so than most bonspiels...but nobody imitated Jimmy Valvano.
Back to the topic at hand and the most important thing in the entire world:
Shuster over Brown in the Finals. I called it. I win. Again. Buy me drinks at your earliest convenience.
Ben Tucker
PS As a side note, I know well the sacrifices made to compete at a high level. Think of Craig Brown and his very young family. How much does he miss with that toddler and newborn? Consider the expenses for unfunded teams this one week alone. I, for one, will not belittle their pursuits. It is possible, however, to dislike this new game without disliking the players. Now buy me drinks.
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02-21-15 07:16PM |
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Grat
Hitting Paint
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 107 |
quote: Originally posted by curlky
Alan you quoted me, but your answer really didn't do anything to prove me wrong. He has an outstanding domestic history. He does not have any history of success of being in charge of a team on the world stage. And he really hasn't gotten any closer to the world talent level.
Let's phrase the question this way. What does the national team coaching staff do to Shuster's teams once they get control of them? Seems like they've failed at their job of getting the best out of the athletes and preparing them for the Olympics. Possibly by trying to make the athletes conform to their picture of the best curling team, rather than doing what they can to maximize what works for the teams that earn the spot.
I think his results at Worlds this year could shed more light on this. Short turn around should mean little time for tinkering with the dynamic that had them outperform the rest of the the competition this week.
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