Disclaimer: CurlingZone does not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any Content posted on any Forums area and you acknowledge that any reliance upon such Content shall be at your sole risk. Any Content placed on any Forums area by users and anonymous posters are the views of the user posting the statement, and do not represent the views of CurlingZone or our partners, advertisers or sponsors. By posting anonymously, you are allowing your IP address to be displayed for identification purposes. CurlingZone reserves the right to remove any post at its discretion without warning or explanation.
02-18-15 12:47AM |
|
southerncurler
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 234 |
With one win in the last two Lank seals out the remainder of the field from the top 4. McCormick and Roth need to root hard for Bert tomorrow to win. Lank has the juniors in her final game.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-18-15 09:24AM |
|
MCC_PE
Hitting Paint
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 140 |
If Bert wins out and Lank loses out then Bert guarantees making tiebreakers. If McCormick and Roth also win out there'd be a 4-way tie for fourth.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-18-15 02:21PM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Tuck-perhaps you put the "Kiss of Death" on Erika, but this women's event is suddenly ahelluvalotmore interesting!
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-18-15 02:54PM |
|
AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
So with just one draw left, we know the teams that will be in the playoffs, the rest is just about seeding...
Brown, Christensen, Sormumen, and Lank will be the final 4...no one has clinched a spot in the 1-2 game yet, nor have any of them been condemned to the 3-4 game...although the loser of the Christensen-Lank game will be one of the 3-4 teams...the winner is not necessarily guaranteed to be in the 1-2 game.
Without running the numbers precisely (and if shotrockcurling is up to date and accurate), I believe that with Roth being out of the running, if Sormunen can place 3rd or better, they're the US World's rep..their lead over the remaining 3 is enough. If Sormunen comes in 4th, whomever wins the National Championship will be the Worlds rep (if my reading is correct, the difference in points earned between 1st and 2nd would be enough to bridge the 5 point gap between Lank in 6th and Christensen in 3rd.)
Adult funded teams have gone 11-5. Add in the funded Juniors and it moves to 18-6. 1 Senior HPP team will be in the final 4, as will the Juniors HPP team.
Unlike the Junior Men's, the Junior Women's team has shined in this tournament. This almost certainly must be the way the USCA hoped it would go with giving the Junior Champs an entry. I do kinda feel for the Christensen rink if they manage to win the whole thing...it would be Junior Nats, Senior Nats, Junior Worlds and Senior Worlds in a 3 month span...there's no way they're getting 4.0's in school this semester...
Last edited by AlanMacNeill on 02-18-15 at 03:05PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-18-15 03:09PM |
|
VAcurler
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 136 |
Two questions in regards to the Christensen team pulling this off:
1. Has a team ever gone to both events?
2. What kind of funding does the USCA (HPP?) provide for going to both Worlds? Its not like they can just put this expense on their credit cards.
Rhetorically, is rooting for a funded junior team the same as rooting for a HPP team?
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-18-15 03:16PM |
|
AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
World's (both Juniors and Open) travel expenses are paid by USCA (Well, USOC actually...it's part of the core HPP funding).
Their parents are on their own if they want to try to travel to both (are any of the players under 18? If so...travel gets entertaining without at least one parent...there may be a contingency in place for that, I don't know).
A quick review of the US Junior and Open Champions lists on Wikipedia shows no occurrances where the same rink won both...so not from the US at least...it's entirely possible it has happened from some European or Asian nation, however.
(yep, good call...removed Senior Moments)
Last edited by AlanMacNeill on 02-18-15 at 04:06PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-18-15 04:03PM |
|
Diego
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 59 |
It's not Senior Nationals. I know what you mean but the true "Senior Nationals" are for those over 50. Can get confusing.
Let's call it just plain Nationals. Same with Senior Worlds. Just Worlds.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-18-15 05:19PM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Time for me to apply the "Kiss of Death".
I'm calling Patti to win it all.
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-18-15 10:49PM |
|
jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
If the points are correct on shotrock, Sormunen gets into the 1-2 game on DSC and will be the World rep. Not sure if that is correct but based on what info is available that is what I see. Top three all 1-1 against each other so DSC is the tiebreaker.
Verified by Terry on Twitter, Sormunen is your World rep.
Last edited by jhcurl on 02-18-15 at 11:07PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 08:12AM |
|
AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
So...for all intents and purposes....our World Rep won't be decided on the ice in the playoffs...it was decided by button draws that weren't even on the webcasts. Because that's the difference between 2nd (and a guaranteed 3rd place at worst) and 3rd (no guarantees at all).
Yes, you need tiebreakers that don't involve full games, I get that, and for placing, that's what you gotta do, understandable...but...too much weight on DSC results...
System Fail. Only a minor one, *IF* Sormunen ends up winning the whole damned thing...but still...system fail.
I get the goals of the system, you want to force curlers to compete in more than just the qualifiers and nats. great... but you've effectively made what *should* be the highest tension curling this nation can produce irrelevant.
I would propose a relatively minor tweak:
The United States World's Representative will be chosen from the following criteria:
1. The winner of the USCA National Championship, provided that team is ranked in the top 4 United States teams in the OOM for the current season, including any points resulting from the National Championship.
2. If the winner of the USCA National Championship does not qualify under criteria #1, then a team ranked in the top 4 US teams in the OOM (including any points resulting from the National Championship) will represent the US, determined as follows (and in this order):
a. If the Runner Up in the USCA National Championship is in the top 4 US Teams on the OOM, they will be the representative.
b. If the 3rd place team in the USCA National Championship is in the top 3 US Teams on the OOM, they will be the representative.
c. If the 4th place team in the USCA National Championship is in the top 2 US Teams on the OOM, they will be the representative.
3. If none of the criteria above are met, then the USCA National Championship winning team will be the representative.
By doing this, you restore meaning to Nationals, and you restore REAL meaning to the playoffs in the Nationals. You decide it on the ice, and you've prevented the "Casual team that got lucky" from overriding a year's worth of results in almost every case.
This is the closest equivalent possible in curling to the way Track and Field does it...our National Champion makes the team, if they've got a qualifying score...if not, we take the best available that does have one.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 09:18AM |
|
RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
I find the whole team selection system takes the air out of our national championship. It may also deny qualifiers much needed competitive training. Quite frankly, if our HPP coaching and support system are so effective--and we are effectively supporting 3 teams in the field--it should be rare that one of these teams can't get the job done at nationals. It should be part of the ongoing assessment of the program effectiveness, and keeps some pressure to be better on both teams and coaches. Not to mention some experience in playing tense, meaningful competition. You will have to finish higher than third in the worlds to get a gold medal. No gold stars for showing up in the playoffs.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 10:30AM |
|
dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Most sports send their national champions to compete at worlds. USA curlers do not have to wait for that -- playoffs have not yet started and we already know who our world rep is! Now that makes for a really exciting finish to this week's event. Not sure why I would want to watch a meaningless chmapionship game, even less interested in buying a ticket to do so.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 10:45AM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
Perhaps that explains the lack of success in recent years (as in MANY recent years). Let the teams make their own lineups-that way you get players who live "in the same time zone" and who can practise and play TOGETHER regularly.
The last time an American rink won a world championship it was Debbie in 2003-they may not have been from the same club, but they were all located in the Central Time Zone.
I may have posted this elsewhere, but there are lots of ex-pat Americans or Americans working in the Toronto area...and I'll bet a Loonie that at least 3 of them are women who are pretty good curlers...and there's a built-in coach, if you know what I mean.
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 11:58AM |
|
My three sons
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: May 2013
Location:
Posts: 32 |
I not quite sure the system is correct when you are saying a 5-Time National Champion (Patti Lank) and a 7-Time National Champion/3 Time Olympian (Erika Brown) are not good enough to be your representative by winning your National Championship.
Its time for these players to walk away from all USCA Championships in protest that this needs to change.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 01:05PM |
|
fanofcurling
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 81 |
Last year saw the emergence of a new team in womens US curling (Team Spatola). They were hot as a pistol at the end of Nationals. But we sent the second place team. That second place team then retired from curling at the end of the season. And to make matters worse, the USCA (HPP coaches) in their wisdom Split up the National Championship team. They kept two players on the A team (but moved the third to second and moved the second to the B team. And the Lead was rewarded for winning a National Championship by being excluded from the HPP program.)
Explain to me again why we changed the National Championship? Because we werent getting the best teams representing the USA at worlds?
Debbie McCormick won Nationals 5 times without the OOM scoring. Patti Lank won Nationals 5 times without the OOM scoring. Erica Brown won Nationals 2 times without the OOM scoring. Alison Pottinger won nationals 1 times as skip and 10 times overall without OOM scoring. The USA women have finished 6th place or better 16 times in the last 20 years. (Dont hold me to the accuracy of all the stats! But Im close.)
Oh! Other honorable mention past National Champions in the last 20 years Cassie (Johnson) Potter, Kari Erickson, Amy Wright, and Lisa Schoeneberg. (Those must have been fluke years)
We almost always sent the best we had. The best just wasnt always good enough.
If the HPP wants for fund teams, fine. But let them win the National Championship fair and square, on the ice in February. Whats so hard about that? Ugh.Im so frustrated with how things are being handled now and Im so disappointed in how the USCA as a group has abandoned the culture and the spirit of USA curling.
Please dont misinterpret my post. I think the women associated with the HPP are tremendous curlers and wonderful people.
BTW, how have USA teams done since all this started in 2011? NO medals.
What was the USCAs involvement in the Spatola Team that won the National Championship last year? NOTHING
Im sorry, but all the BS being provided by the HPP is unnecessary. Yeah Patti, Cory, or Erica, you might win Nationals, but youre not going to Worlds. How Fd up is that?
Honestly, If I were Spatola/Roth, Id be pissed as hell. She had a team with real Chemistry (No disrespect to Tabitha or Jamie!) last year, and the USCA just ripped apart what they had accomplished at Nationals last year. And now shes sitting on the outside looking in at the playoffs!
When is anyone at the USCA going to be held accountable for the kinds of decisions that they continue to make that are not in the interest of USA curling?
I HONESTLY hope Sormunen wins Nationals, because if they dont win, I dont know how they go into a World Championship event knowing that the actual National Champion is sitting at home watching them.
We dont have a National Championship anymore. We just have a playground to train the HPP teams. But its at the expense of a lot of the other teams time and money.
And before someone replies with, They have the same opportunities as the HPP teams to earn points during the season.. Please dont! They dont have the money, they dont have the access to resources, etc. The playing field is NOT equal! But fine! I can live with that. Just dont give them an unfair advantage at Nationals! If your program is so great, let it stand on its own merit. Beat the other teams (that have their own program for success) fair and square on the ice in February.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 01:19PM |
|
RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote: Originally posted by fanofcurling
I HONESTLY hope Sormunen wins Nationals, because if they dont win, I dont know how they go into a World Championship event knowing that the actual National Champion is sitting at home watching them.
I'm with you on this.
quote: Originally posted by fanofcurling
And before someone replies with, They have the same opportunities as the HPP teams to earn points during the season.. Please dont! They dont have the money, they dont have the access to resources, etc. The playing field is NOT equal! But fine! I can live with that. Just dont give them an unfair advantage at Nationals! If your program is so great, let it stand on its own merit. Beat the other teams (that have their own program for success) fair and square on the ice in February.
Plus the HPP teams get to earn points at invitation-only events. Not everyone had a shot at the "Curling Night in America" event or (for the men) the "Red Square Classic."
Ironically, the men's juniors send their national champions to the worlds, despite the fact that the favored and most consistent team had one uncharacteristically bad game in the finals.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 02:51PM |
|
Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
quote: Originally posted by My three sons
I not quite sure the system is correct when you are saying a 5-Time National Champion (Patti Lank) and a 7-Time National Champion/3 Time Olympian (Erika Brown) are not good enough to be your representative by winning your National Championship.
Its time for these players to walk away from all USCA Championships in protest that this needs to change.
I don't think that anybody is downplaying the accomplishments of Erika or Patti or Debbie for that matter. It's just that once they get to the world championship things go off the rails. As I mentioned above, perhaps the problem lies in the method with which you "make up" your teams instead of letting them form in the old-fashioned way.
__________________
Jim
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 02:57PM |
|
AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
Let's be honest and call a spade a spade...
All of this "HPP" and "We gotta get better ATHLETES in there", and "We need to make sure curlers are better prepared!" is because Shuster was our Olympic Rep for the last 2 times around, didn't do so well at either Olympics, and he doesn't exactly fit the "Slim, trim, fit, fighting, and COMPLIANT" model that the USCA wants...
It's not about "ensuring we remain Olympic Eligible". It's not about "Improving the depth of talent at the Elite level", it's about making sure that the guys and gals wearing Red, White, and Blue in Korea in 2018 will fit the USOC stereotype as much as possible.
Personally, I intend to laugh heartily when Shuster manages to make it under this ruleset anyhow
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 03:25PM |
|
VAcurler
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 136 |
quote: Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Let's be honest and call a spade a spade...
All of this "HPP" and "We gotta get better ATHLETES in there", and "We need to make sure curlers are better prepared!" is because Shuster was our Olympic Rep for the last 2 times around, didn't do so well at either Olympics, and he doesn't exactly fit the "Slim, trim, fit, fighting, and COMPLIANT" model that the USCA wants...
It's not about "ensuring we remain Olympic Eligible". It's not about "Improving the depth of talent at the Elite level", it's about making sure that the guys and gals wearing Red, White, and Blue in Korea in 2018 will fit the USOC stereotype as much as possible.
Personally, I intend to laugh heartily when Shuster manages to make it under this ruleset anyhow
No. You are wrong and being uncivil/mean.
It isn't about how the athletes look, its about how they perform. And at the Worlds they aren't performing at the level the USOC demands. Since there isn't a test to predict the success of drawing to four foot for the win in an extra end in front on 16,000 spectators and national television, they are using what they can measure, one component that is measurable happens to be fitness.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 03:28PM |
|
AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
I hate to break it to you, but at every single worlds, 75% of the teams won't win a medal.
50% of them will finish in the lower half of the field.
The USA isn't God Given a Right To Medal. There's gonna be years when it doesn't happen.
Just because it doesn't doesn't mean that you need to scrap a system and change it...but the USOC made the USCA do so.
And it's not exactly "mean" to point out that Shuster (as was within his rights, and I agree with him) didn't change his entire style (life and play) when he won Nationals and/or the Olympic trials.
He's proven over and over that he is the best we have...yet the USOC seems to try and change the system to keep him out.
It's not rude to call a spade a spade.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 03:47PM |
|
RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
The more urgent concern right now is retaining our Olympic spot by regularly finishing high enough in Worlds. If we can do that, then we can think about how we are going to medal. Losing our Olympic spot will have a devastating impact on recruitment, which of course harms long-term development of high-level curlers.
I don't think we've yet discovered a proven model for developing more competitive teams. The HPP program may be "it" but I have my doubts, mainly because it's still working with more or less the same talent pool.
I'd like to see the U.S. take a more organized and pro-active approach at developing new talent here at home. To find that talent, we are going to need more curlers in the U.S. (We can't just keep raiding Canadian ex-pats.) We are moving in the right direction in numbers and curling facilities--we need to get instruction and coaching out there; and provide good playing conditions.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 03:47PM |
|
nom de broom
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 84 |
quote: Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Let's be honest and call a spade a spade...
All of this "HPP" and "We gotta get better ATHLETES in there", and "We need to make sure curlers are better prepared!" is because Shuster was our Olympic Rep for the last 2 times around, didn't do so well at either Olympics, and he doesn't exactly fit the "Slim, trim, fit, fighting, and COMPLIANT" model that the USCA wants...
It's not about "ensuring we remain Olympic Eligible". It's not about "Improving the depth of talent at the Elite level", it's about making sure that the guys and gals wearing Red, White, and Blue in Korea in 2018 will fit the USOC stereotype as much as possible.
Personally, I intend to laugh heartily when Shuster manages to make it under this ruleset anyhow
I'd check the title of the forum thread you're arguing in before laughing heartily. Because unless he's scheduled for some pretty drastic surgery in Sweden, there's no way Shuster's making it to Worlds under "this ruleset."
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 04:00PM |
|
misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
so chris plys said on his twitter that sormunen punched her tickets to worlds? is that true, no other team can pass her?
been a very long time since she's gone to compete on the international scene thats for sure. 2007 isnt it?
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 09:10PM |
|
chapnlie
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 282 |
(duplicate item deleted)
Last edited by chapnlie on 02-19-15 at 09:13PM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
02-19-15 09:12PM |
|
chapnlie
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 282 |
quote: Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Let's be honest and call a spade a spade...
All of this "HPP" and "We gotta get better ATHLETES in there", and "We need to make sure curlers are better prepared!" is because Shuster was our Olympic Rep for the last 2 times around, didn't do so well at either Olympics, and he doesn't exactly fit the "Slim, trim, fit, fighting, and COMPLIANT" model that the USCA wants...
It's not about "ensuring we remain Olympic Eligible". It's not about "Improving the depth of talent at the Elite level", it's about making sure that the guys and gals wearing Red, White, and Blue in Korea in 2018 will fit the USOC stereotype as much as possible.
Personally, I intend to laugh heartily when Shuster manages to make it under this ruleset anyhow
Alan, I think you nailed it!
Well, almost. While I think the HPP is largely in response to the U.S. mens' futility at the Olympic since Fenson's Olympic silver, I think there is also some measure of protecting the U.S. participation, so the USCA caved and decided to try the approach successfully used by the Europeans. Unfortunately, once again the powers that be failed to adequately consider the MANY drawbacks of the new approach ... well detailed by fanofcurling.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
|
|
|
All times are GMT. The time now is . |
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|