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10-31-12 02:09AM |
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windy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2003
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Team Canada
It was announced today that there will be a Team Canada in the 2015 Brier - winner of 2014 Brier in Kamloops. The bottom team will be relegated to a qualifying event the week prior.
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10-31-12 11:55AM |
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J-Ho
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Registered: Jan 2005
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Time to reinvent the wheel I suppose. Also time to start curling in Nunavut.
JH
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10-31-12 02:17PM |
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Unregistered
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So if your province finishes last the year prior, does that mean you play another event just prior to the brier to see if you can advance? Even after you just won your province?
So how much more time off will be needed for teams in this position? If the CCA is adding time are they also adding financial compensation?
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10-31-12 05:02PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
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so i assume that northern ontario will also start at the scotties that year?
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10-31-12 07:14PM |
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J-Ho
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To Unreg and Misty yes to everything except I don't know about the compensation. These criticisms were all pointed our in previous threads and of course the CCA listened carefully to all of them...
JH
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11-01-12 11:32PM |
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Unregistered
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First Mixed doubles and now this?
woe to the CCA the first time a powerhouse province sends a weak team who finishes last. Can you imagine the hue and cry if the likes of Martin, Koe, McEwan or Howard had to play in a prequalifying round?
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11-02-12 12:08AM |
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Unregistered
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quote: Originally posted by Unregistered
First Mixed doubles and now this?
woe to the CCA the first time a powerhouse province sends a weak team who finishes last. Can you imagine the hue and cry if the likes of Martin, Koe, McEwan or Howard had to play in a prequalifying round?
Of course this assumes McEwen had finally managed to win MB Can't see any of those teams being intimidated by the competition. Personally I'd like to see more than just 1 team sent to relegation round (and more than 1 team from the pre-Brier event)
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11-02-12 09:34AM |
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Unregistered
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The more I dwell on this announcement the more ludicrous and poorly thought through it becomes.
So now some team will have to play who knows how many more games against how many more teams. And all not their fault (presumably they aren't repeat provincial champs) but that of another team who had a bad Brier.
This is what happens when your manager isn't a curler, coaches have too much input into the system and the executive is a bunch of yes men.
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11-02-12 07:03PM |
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J-Ho
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I pretty much agree with the "nay" comments mentioned here. If they were going to alter tradition anyway, I think they would have been better off to simply have two pools or some format like that and include everyone. Like a previous poster said, can't wait till the relegated team is Alberta, Manitoba or Saskatchewan!
JH
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11-03-12 01:48AM |
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johnnysmoke
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Registered: Nov 2002
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If I'm reading this correctly...It might be difficult in the future to convince a weaker province to host a Brier, knowing that there is a chance you may not have a team representing your province on the ice that week.
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11-03-12 04:43AM |
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peteski
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quote: Originally posted by johnnysmoke
If I'm reading this correctly...It might be difficult in the future to convince a weaker province to host a Brier, knowing that there is a chance you may not have a team representing your province on the ice that week.
I haven't looked into this, but I'm guessing they'll let the host province in automatically, the way they give a berth to the home country for the world championships and the Olympics.
I have to say I don't understand why people are so bothered by this. It improves the competition by putting in another quality team, while dropping an also-ran, but it keeps the provincial rivalry and feel. I know it will still feel like the Brier to me and not just some tour event or another slam.
You guys can cry me a river for the teams that win their province or territory and don't make the actual Brier. If you can't make it out of the qualifying event, you don't deserve to play in the brier.
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11-03-12 08:14AM |
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Unregistered
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The whole point of a national championships is to give every province a chance to compete in it. Whether or not a province can contend or not should not be an issue. There will always be 3 or 4 teams on the bottom, thats the way a championship is, someone has to be on the bottom. Besides there's always the story arc of some lesser team having a great week.
We shouldnt be punishing the teams that wind up on the bottom we should be figuring out a way that they to can be more competitive.
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11-03-12 08:15AM |
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Unregistered
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frankly the people on here that bitch about having to always see that team on 2 or 3 losses..i really doubt any of you could do any better
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11-03-12 10:06AM |
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Curl401
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2007
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I am totally in favour of a Team Canada. As a former Brier Player I love the Team Canada concept. The Brier becomes stronger,more marketable and it is a deserved perk for a Team that wins it the year before. I have been on Teams that have finished near the bottom and near the top at the Brier.I like the Team Canada addition especially since I am now a fan and no longer a competitor. It gives fans another great team to watch and why not. As for relegating teams I disagree and would have added Team Canada and left all other provinces as is for a total of 13 Teams.Tweek the draw and if need be go five sheets instaed of 4. It can be done. The country is well represented from coast to coast to coast.
I cannot imagine winning a purple heart and not playing the week. For many curlers this is a life time achievment and for the CCA to have them play a second round because last years team struggled is ridiculous and not fair. It's just wrong.I cannot imagine a Brier without Quebec,PEI,New Brunswick or Nova Scotia or any other Province for that matter. The equal access argument for two more teams from the North is fair but until the numbers of players increases and the talent increases the access argument sending three teams doesn't fly for me.
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11-03-12 10:24AM |
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Curl401
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Registered: Apr 2007
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quote: Originally posted by Curl401
I am totally in favour of a Team Canada. As a former Brier Player I love the Team Canada concept. The Brier becomes stronger,more marketable and it is a deserved perk for a Team that wins it the year before. I have been on Teams that have finished near the bottom and near the top at the Brier.I like the Team Canada addition especially since I am now a fan and no longer a competitor. It gives fans another great team to watch and why not. As for relegating teams I disagree and would have added Team Canada and left all other provinces as is for a total of 13 Teams.Tweek the draw and if need be go five sheets instaed of 4. It can be done. The country is well represented from coast to coast to coast.
I cannot imagine winning a purple heart and not playing the week. For many curlers this is a life time achievment and for the CCA to have them play a second round because last years team struggled is ridiculous and not fair. It's just wrong.I cannot imagine a Brier without Quebec,PEI,New Brunswick or Nova Scotia or any other Province for that matter. The equal access argument for two more teams from the North is fair but until the numbers of players increases and the talent increases the access argument sending three teams doesn't fly for me.
Further to my last post the more I think about it the more I am out raged with this move by the CCA. The Provincial associations need to challenge this decision and the Top Curlers is this country that have respect in the curling world need to speak up and speak up now. The Howard Boys,Don Duguid,Kevin Martin,Jack MacDuff,Jim Ursel,Coleen Jones,Jennifer Jones,Mark Dacey,Brad Gushue need to weigh in this issue and now. If any of you are out there get busy and tweet or email the CCA and do it soon.
Last edited by Curl401 on 11-03-12 at 12:31PM
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11-03-12 04:55PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
As someone, like 401, who has had the good fortune and honour to play in a Brier I want to add my opinion to the fray.
I like the idea of Team Canada and completely disagree with the B pool, pre-Brier qualifier for many reasons.
First, as stated by another poster, at least one team could require as much as two full weeks off to play both events (and this would be after all the time they had needed to win their respective province/territory). And unless they're that areas defending champion, why should someone have to pay for another teams poor record?
Second, who will compensate those teams financially and for how much?
Third, there is the traditional factor. The Brier is about including all of Canada, not excluding them based on the previous years finish.
Fourth, is there really that much curling and curlers in the Yukon, NWT and Nunavit that warrant them each having a berth in the Brier? Does it not make more sense for that area, as was the practise in the past, to have one representative?
If we were talking numbers in the thousands for each area, I could understand it, but as far as I am aware we are talking far fewer than that. And to compensate them for distances to travel-which in my IMO is fair and reasonable given the far norths geographical reality-I would have no objection to the CCA injecting them with funding for their provincial championship travel costs.
Lastly, if we must have the additional teams, then so be it. Just add another day to the Brier and play everyone as we do now. And for god sakes stop gnashing your teeth and pulling your hair about the fact that someone, always, will finish last.
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11-03-12 05:01PM |
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jamcan
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Registered: Sep 2002
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quote: Originally posted by peteski
...You guys can cry me a river for the teams that win their province or territory and don't make the actual Brier. If you can't make it out of the qualifying event, you don't deserve to play in the brier.
Up until now Peteski, winning your province/territory WAS your qualifying event to play in the Brier. Now I guess the gruelling marathon that can be Alta, Sask, Man and Ont just isnt good enough to deserve playing in the Brier?
Seeing as I never concern myself over the simple fact that someone has to finish last, give me one solid reason why we should change this?
Which makes for an interesting challenge that I issue to Peteski: post the last place provinces/territories and their records for the past 10 years.
Then I would like to hear from posters in those provinces just how they would feel having to play the extra round the following year.
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Last edited by jamcan on 11-03-12 at 05:12PM
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11-03-12 07:31PM |
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Unregistered
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If the model currently used at Seniors is applied, the bottom two teams will be relegated. If one of the bottom two is the province that is hosting the next year, then 3rd from the bottom is relegated.
Often 3rd from the bottom has a decent record (ie. 4-7) and some very good teams have had off years and fallen into a record like that. Using Seniors as an example again, BC Senior Women won world titles in 2009 and 2011. This past year, Penny Ryan represented, lost a few close ones, finished 4-7 and BC will have to requalify next year.
With the additions of Team Canada, the Brier fields are going to be a notch stronger and some provinces that are traditionally near the top are going to find themselves getting relegated. This is when the noise will get louder.
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11-03-12 11:09PM |
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Curl401
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quote: Originally posted by peteski
I haven't looked into this, but I'm guessing they'll let the host province in automatically, the way they give a berth to the home country for the world championships and the Olympics.
I have to say I don't understand why people are so bothered by this. It improves the competition by putting in another quality team, while dropping an also-ran, but it keeps the provincial rivalry and feel. I know it will still feel like the Brier to me and not just some tour event or another slam.
You guys can cry me a river for the teams that win their province or territory and don't make the actual Brier. If you can't make it out of the qualifying event, you don't deserve to play in the brier.
Your dilusional
Shame on you!
I have made my point so I will not make it again. If host provinces get a bye than it makes my argument even stronger as Quebec,NB,PEI,NL,Terr and NOnt are no longer in the rotation to host a Brier
As for your cry a river
Again you show no empathy for how dam hard it is to win any province any time
Have a vote across the country on this rather than the CCA boys with their goofy Red Jackets making the decisions for people that actually know how to curl
you win a province your in
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11-04-12 01:15AM |
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peteski
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Registered: Feb 2007
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quote: Originally posted by Curl401
Your dilusional
Shame on you!
I have made my point so I will not make it again. If host provinces get a bye than it makes my argument even stronger as Quebec,NB,PEI,NL,Terr and NOnt are no longer in the rotation to host a Brier
As for your cry a river
Again you show no empathy for how dam hard it is to win any province any time
Have a vote across the country on this rather than the CCA boys with their goofy Red Jackets making the decisions for people that actually know how to curl
you win a province your in
Shame on me? This is a very childish way to have a discussion.
I will say we aren't as far apart as you may think. My main argument is that, speaking as just a fan (shouldn't the fans matter a little bit) I would prefer a Brier with a Team Canada. However they do that is fine with me. If you want to include everyone, that doesn't bother me, but just the same, I will not miss seeing the provinces that don't qualify and it doesn't matter to me which provinces those are. The CCA's solution is fine with me and I hardly see how it's an outrage.
I am aware it is hard to win any province, obviously it is. But, you know what else is hard: finishing second in Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario. Where's your empathy for those teams? You will at least agree that it is easier to win some provinces than it is other provinces I hope. The point is that the way teams get to the Brier is not "fair" and it's never going to be. And, I'm not asking for it to be fair. But, while I will feel bad for teams that win their provinces but don't make the Brier, I won't feel any worse for them than I would teams that lose their provincial final. They will still have had a very good chance to qualify and if they don't, then they didn't play well enough, simple as that. This isn't fair necessarily, but as I say, it's not fair the way it is now. Honestly, why shouldn't I feel as much empathy for Mike McEwen, Peter Corner, or Brock Virtue as I do for the teams that won't qualify using the new system?
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11-04-12 02:37AM |
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peteski
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quote: Originally posted by jamcan
Up until now Peteski, winning your province/territory WAS your qualifying event to play in the Brier. Now I guess the gruelling marathon that can be Alta, Sask, Man and Ont just isnt good enough to deserve playing in the Brier?
Seeing as I never concern myself over the simple fact that someone has to finish last, give me one solid reason why we should change this?
Which makes for an interesting challenge that I issue to Peteski: post the last place provinces/territories and their records for the past 10 years.
Then I would like to hear from posters in those provinces just how they would feel having to play the extra round the following year.
How often do you honestly think Alta, Man and Ont will have to compete in the qualifying event? For whatever reason, Sask sucks these days, but I still feel it will be pretty rare for them to have to play in the qualifying event. It will normally be provinces and territories with far less grueling qualification processes. Why do those provinces deserve to have it easier than others? Qualifying for the Brier has never been "fair" and it never will be. But this is all really beside the point. If a team is good enough, it will advance past this qualification round.
As I said above, I'd happily accept your solution of adding team Canada and keeping everyone there. That wouldn't bother me, but neither does the CCA's solution. And I will give you one good reason for this change: The Brier will be better and more interesting than before. For one, a Team Canada entry makes the battle at the top more interesting by adding one more high level team, but I think we agree on that so I'll move on to the other point. Games on the bottom end of the standings become infinitely more entertaining. Games that mean nothing now, actually have big implications. As a fan I enjoy it when games have more at stake. The thrill of victory and agony of defeat and all that good stuff. I don't know why people are against more drama.
I don't mind accepting your "challenge". I can use wikipedia as well as anyone else:
2003: PEI 1-10
2004: Territories 0-11
2005: Territories 0-11
2006: Northern Ontario 0-11
2007: New Brunswick 1-10
2008: New Brunswick/Territories 2-9
2009: Nova Scotia/Northern Ontario/PEI 2-9
2010: Territories 1-10
2011: PEI 1-10
2012: Saskatchewan/PEI 3-8
I don't really know what the relevance is. No province is going to want to compete in the challenge round. Do you think teams from the bigger provinces enjoy having to compete against 20 times the amount of teams as other provinces? It's not about what individual provinces want. It's about having a great competition. That is certainly still going to be the case under the new format.
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11-04-12 02:43AM |
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peteski
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quote: Originally posted by Unregistered
The whole point of a national championships is to give every province a chance to compete in it. Whether or not a province can contend or not should not be an issue. There will always be 3 or 4 teams on the bottom, thats the way a championship is, someone has to be on the bottom. Besides there's always the story arc of some lesser team having a great week.
We shouldnt be punishing the teams that wind up on the bottom we should be figuring out a way that they to can be more competitive.
But every province still has a chance to compete in it.
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11-04-12 04:04AM |
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doubletakeout
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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 480 |
I don't like to speculate too much about what the new scheduling will be with respect to when the qualifying round will take place and what the travel/expense impact on those teams will be. Let's see what the CCA comes up with.
And let's not forget that there already has been one qualifying tournament for the Brier: the YT/NWT qualification to determine the one representative team for the territories. That was an incredible expense and inconvenience to those competing teams and associations, considering the huge costs of flights up north!
And to everyone speculating about an AB, MB, ON team getting relegated:
The only way that would happen would be to have a very good team (anyone who wins AB, MB, ON will be a very good team) have a dreadful week at the Brier, and then the following year's champion have an even worse weekend against likely weaker opponents. Certainly possible, but I'd bet a lot on AB, MB, ON never missing a Brier under this relegation system.
Team Canada's been wonderful for the Scotties, and I really like its addition to the Brier. We may one day see a bigger field (10 provs + 3 territories + TC) if/when international curling adopts 8-end games (which could permit 4 draws a day)
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11-04-12 08:24AM |
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J-Ho
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Registered: Jan 2005
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Anyone like including everybody and just having two pools? Which pool you play in can depend on last year's finish. Expand the playoffs and have the final four play a page playoff as normal. This would make up for the fewer round robin games and make all of the games at the end of the week important.
Thoughts?
JH
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