Registered: Sep 2002
Location: Summerside, Prince Edward Island Canada
Posts: 143

Hi Everybody. I'm looking to see what people's thoughts on Stopwatches are. My personal belief I do not use one because it would not help me at all and I'm not a competitive curler. I find at my club that there are people using it for all the wrong reasons. They have no clue what they are doing with them. They are playing around with them while me and others and trying to throw a rock. They just seem to use it to through they are good. Also wondering if they should be used on a fun night of curling either teams put together that night or teams put together for about 6 weeks with new curlers in the league, and some not very good curlers and some good curlers and if other clubs use them on these night. I agree they should be used in a competitive setting with curling but it begs my mind sometimes why are these people using them if someone was going to ask them a question on times they wouldn't have a clue what your talking about. Usually during fun spiel stopwatches are not to be used. Which totally agree. There's curlers coming to our club who may have never curled before. Thanks. Amanda

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I don't use a stopwatch, because I figure the less equipment to use the better. A stopwatch is useful if the thrower can consistently throw the desired weight. It's no use telling someone he threw a certain split time when he can't duplicate the same throw 2 ends down the road. Obviously, some top teams use the watches, so, I assume they find it helpful. For the average club curler, it probably doesn't help, but, everyone's experience may vary. Watching curling on TV I find that women's teams seem to use more timing than men't teams? Anyone else notice this?

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Stopwatches are generally used for three things:

1. Split-times - during delivery, to anticipate how far a rock will go based on time between backline to hogline, generally 3.4-3.9 seconds (or tline to hogline)
2. First hogline to stop - while rock is in motion, to determine how fact ice is, generally 22-26 seconds.
3. Between the hoglines - while rock is in motion, mainly in practice but sometimes in games and mostly for hits, to establish consistency between teammates on how much weight to throw on hits. Normal hit weight generally 9-10 seconds, control weight generally 10-11 seconds etc.

These times are useful for fairly strong club level teams and up, and are used as a complement to judging weight by eye/feel (which cannot be abandoned). It's another peice of information to help make decisions and establish consistency.

However, for more recreational curlers, you will likely not get any use from these measures. The reason is that recreational players do not replicate the same delivery on a consistent basis, and therefore the information gained from times has very low relevance. This is especially true for curlers who are new to the game - you should be focussing first on balance, then on hitting the broom and establishing a feel for the weight.

Hope this helps.

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A Stopwatch in the right hands with the right team is a useful tool. Curling with a bunch of beginners not so much. I tend to use it early in the game to get a feel for the speed. I will use it again if ice changes seem to be occuring later in the game and ocasionally on an important draw when I want to confirm with my judgement.

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I think stopwatches are a great tool, regardless of elite or beginner. But they are TOOLS, not something to live and die by. You need to find the correct balance between a split time or hog-to-hog time and your eyes and the feel.

My own thoughts on the etiquette that Amanda was talking about. How do you know it will not help you at all? So what, you're not a competitive curler...do you wear curling shoes, use a real curling broom, any other piece of curling equipment? When you first start curling you are usually in jeans and sneakers stepping on a step on slidder and not really having a "gripper"...when you first put real curling clothes and shoes on, your skill level instantly jumps a notch because they are tools that help you better perform...you can stretch more in curling pants, you have more stability in a curling shoe, and they give you a better grip on the ice for sweeping. These tools should not be frowned upon for new curlers or fun spiels, they should be encouraged as a tool. I feel the same way about stopwatches. Just because someone is sporting a stopwatch doesn't make them a certain type of curler and I don't think they should ever be frowned upon. If you notice them using them incorrectly...educate them. No different than if someone was delivering a stone with the incorrect handle everytime...you'd educate them. Or if they constantly breaking a rule...you'd educate them, make them aware of what is correct.

Don't diss stopwatches and certainly don't paint curlers with a brush of indecency for using them in less competitive settings...anything that helps you improve your game is good. If they weren't meant to be used, they wouldn't be used by anyone.

It's funny that someone from PEI who spouts off about the relegation round being bad because PEI doesn't have access to competition and the juniors are suffering and we're driving people away and forcing them to move, etc...will spout off about a tool that makes some of the best teams the best because they know how to use it correctly and then actually discourage folks from using it. Interesting.

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I don't why I'm being bashed for asking people's opinions and stating my opinion by a nameless person. Thanks to the people who answered the questions without bashing me. Please put your name down unregistered and would love to chat with you about your statements. I have nothing against anybody as long as the respect me and others. Amanda

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Last edited by amandabulge on 11-22-12 at 01:28PM

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Oh by the way I got my answers so will no longer come into this post. So Gerry can delete if he wants and keep discussing pleasantly and if Mr Unregistered is nice enough he or she can email at bulgeramanda1980@gmail.com My bet is this person won't because he or she is to chicken to be a real person and they do I will thank them and be very respective of them

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Registered: Nov 2008
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Amanda, if you want to try the stop watch try it. i spent twenty minutes with my juniors yesterday teaching them how to use the stop watch for sweeping. i think it will help them judging as long as the thrower throws each rock simular. i also try to teach sound with the juniors.
try anything that can help you and as you get better your team then also gets better. your passion for the game is great so keep going and try everything just to try it.
good luck to you and keep enjoying the game.
nick

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Thanks Nick Probably will not because it's my personal feeling and for a number of reasons will not help me. Hope all is well with everybody. Thanks again. Amanda

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And if I ever said something that I shouldn't I'm sorry. At least I can put my name. Amanda

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quote:

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Originally posted by amandabulge
I find at my club that there are people using it for all the wrong reasons. They have no clue what they are doing with them. They are playing around with them while me and others and trying to throw a rock. They just seem to use it to through they are good. Also wondering if they should be used on a fun night of curling either teams put together that night or teams put together for about 6 weeks with new curlers in the league, and some not very good curlers and some good curlers and if other clubs use them on these night.

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quote:

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I agree they should be used in a competitive setting with curling but it begs my mind sometimes why are these people using them if someone was going to ask them a question on times they wouldn't have a clue what your talking about.

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quote:

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Usually during fun spiel stopwatches are not to be used. Which totally agree. There's curlers coming to our club who may have never curled before. Thanks. Amanda

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
This is especially true for curlers who are new to the game - you should be focussing first on balance, then on hitting the broom and establishing a feel for the weight.

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See them hanging out in matching sweaters, throwing rocks at houses,
They're afraid of linoleum, afraid of being chased
Around the kitchen with their socks on by a pack of timberwolves." --Dik Van Dykes

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If you have a team of four players with perfect releases, then a stopwatch will work great. For the rest of the 99% of the teams out there, it can present a ton of difficulties.

I curled in the bush league circuit with a guy who could judge weight to stop on a dime! As a result the backend's draw percentage was significantly high. The next year he discovered "the watch" and everything went to hell. Stayed that way too. If I had a nickel for everytime I heard "but the split was great..."

The watch does however help on ice you have never seen before if used properly. Especially when scouting sheets before a game. The best thing you could do IMHO is have one player use the watch while the other "manuallly" judges it. The manual judger overrides the watch caller.

My 2 cents,

JH

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I think the take-away here is that the watch provides one piece of data about the shot. This however does not tell the whole story about how the shot will turn out.

Personally, I activate the watch for 100% of draws and light hits for back-to-hog times. I do this without looking at the watch, just click the start and stop. In the meantime, gather all your other pieces of data. How was the pushoff? Did (s)he bobble? How about the release? Does it sound right? Feel right?

WIth the above in mind, once you cross the hog you can decide if the time will be useful or not. Then take a quick glance at the watch. Factor it in. I'd estimate that although I time each rock, I probably only look at it 75% of the time.

It takes practice. My approach when I was getting started was that I would just start and stop the watch without looking at the time. I would decide where I thought the shot would end up, and what the time was. I think it took about a month to get used to it and get some valuable intel from the time.

At the end of the day it comes down to personal preference.

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The watch is unlikely to be of much use on social league night when every delivery is different and often errant. On a strong club league team or competitive team with decent deliveries and nearly consistent releases, its a great aid for getting a jump on the sweeping plan for a rock. Keep in mind that more than 5 seconds after the release the watch is useless, and the eyes take over.

I too, despair at the front end that watches a rock coast to a stop 3 feet short and comments 'the split said it was there' without taking into account the draw path, release, or how it LOOKED.

The watch is a great tool. But if you can't swim don't blame the water! Having said that, I use the watch on every draw both as an aid to sweeping and to keep track of how each draw path is running. But not on social league night.

Cheers.

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Have you notice that most of the top teams don't even have stopwatches on their brooms or around their wastes?

Each rock is different.Shoe sliders have different speeds, while two curlers with the same shoes decelerate on a draw at different pace, therefore affecting your split times. Pebble is not uniform,different in each throwing line and varies during a game and sometimes going up or down the sheet. Releases are different, with some pulling back and others pushing or extending their arm at release. Some drag their knee on the ice, others have more pressure on the trailing foot, toe dip or not. And I am still talking about competitive curlers. Imagine club curlers!

If you want to know how to read a stopwatch, go ahead. But if you really want to become a good sweeper that can JUDGE a rock and communicate to the skip, your first move should be to get rid of the stopwatch and for coaches our there, of speedtraps. Stopwatch and speedtraps... exactly. Stop the watch and the speeed-trap.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
Have you notice that most of the top teams don't even have stopwatches on their brooms or around their wastes?

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I think the stopwatch should not be allowed, rather teams should have to make their own judgment on rock speed. Competitive teams practice before each game so they know the ice, then time rocks so that nothing is new when the game starts. I like how it used to be... part of the game was seeing which team picked up the ice, both curl and weight, sooner. I guess that is still the case in most club curling, except for the watch, but not so at higher levels. Before you bash me, can you think of any other sport that has added a completely new tool to make it easier for the competitors like the stopwatch does. I don't think new sliders and brushes count because curlers have long slid while delivering their stone and the slider does not change that, and curlers have always swept stones and new improved brooms do not change that. Just my 2 cents worth.. and no, I don't expect that watches will ever be banned from the game.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dbsdbs
...can you think of any other sport that has added a completely new tool to make it easier for the competitors like the stopwatch does?

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Interesting that it only seems to be the women using the watches at the elite level.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dbsdbs
Before you bash me, can you think of any other sport that has added a completely new tool to make it easier for the competitors like the stopwatch does. I don't think new sliders and brushes count because curlers have long slid while delivering their stone and the slider does not change that, and curlers have always swept stones and new improved brooms do not change that. Just my 2 cents worth.. and no, I don't expect that watches will ever be banned from the game.

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Originally posted by Unregistered
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Originally posted by gregburns



Personally I don't care if anyone uses a stopwatch, or wristwatch, or a friggin abacus out there. As long as we are all playing by the same rules.

Pro baseball players have not always worn gloves in the field. Pitchers have rosin bags on the mound that help them grip the ball.
Pro football now has a headset in the QB's helmet.
Technology has fundamentally changed every sport... composite hockey sticks, drivers that make 350-yard tee shots routine, belly putters (ugh!), tennis rackets NOT made with catgut or wood frames.

I guess soccer (sorry, football) still just has a ball and some goalposts. I for one am not interested in seeing curling become more like soccer.

And are you seriously telling us that improved brush tech has not changed the game in a fundamental way?

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Qualifying your statement as adding a completely new tool is fairly restrictive as new materials and technology can significantly improve performance more than a stopwatch can help sweepers judge weight.

Regardless, sticky gloves for football are a new piece of equipment that makes it easier for skill position players catch, throw or otherwise handle the ball and even non-skill position players to tackle or hold.

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