Registered: Apr 2012
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This situation comes up all of the time, and I am curious to know what folks think. I am approaching this as a club curler (not as an elite curler). So, however you play, keep in mind that at some point, your team or your opponents might miss a shot.

It's the last end. The score is tied. Your team has the hammer. Your opponent throws a center guard. What shot do you play? More importantly, why are you playing this shot? How does it fit with your goal for the end?

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Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:

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Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


You can try the famous tick shot if you are playing CCA free guard zone rules. The shot is difficult but why not try it, a canadian or world title is NOT on the line.

C.

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Registered: Apr 2012
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Posts: 20

If I try the tick shot, I don't think my lead will make it, and when I call the next shot, there will probably be three guards out front. javascript:smilie('')It's not the Brier, but I would still like to win the game.

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Registered: Oct 2012
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Based on the scenario you posted, my inclination would be to try and hide behind the guard. If you don't fully bury, you have the opportunity to split the house later. I believe the key to having the hammer is to try and always split the house as soon as possible. Ideally you want to have one rock in front of the 4 foot ring and another in the wings on the top twelve.
I also think at club level you want to get a rock in the key area in front of the tee line. Another good second shot is to throw up another centre guard beside your opponent's rock that you can use and raise later. I'm interested in hearing about other curler's thoughts on this as well.

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Registered: Jun 2007
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Posts: 440

There's really only three shot choices in this situation.

1. Tick the guard
2. Draw around the guard
3. Draw out to the wings

What you choose depends on the strengths of your team, and the weaknesses of the other team.

Ticking the guard is the most difficult choice, and should only be called if you think your lead is capable of making it at least partly. Also bear in mind that you'll probably have to draw to win (the opponent will likely have SOMEthing to hide behind in the end), so if you're okay leaving yourself a draw and feel confident your lead can execute a tick, then go for it. As long as you've got the four-foot in your pocket, two well executed tick shots will win almost every time.

Drawing around the guard is the riskiest option, but if the opponent is having a hard time making good draws this could be your best option. It's pretty important this shot not go behind the tee line if called...even somewhere like top 12 is okay. Top 4 is obviously best, but the error has to be a few feet short. Owning the control zone in club curling will win you lots of games.

Drawing to the wings is the most defensive, conservative play and only one I'd suggest if the middle of your lineup is accurate with big weight and can clear multiple rocks with one shot. What you're counting on here is your opponent ignoring your potential game-winning point over on the side, and throwing up guards and making draws behind. Your team will have to peel guards and keep the middle open (hopefully not jamming your side counter out of the rings in the process).

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Registered: Mar 2011
Location: Victoria BC
Posts: 2

My immediate thought is to try and draw around it. My thinking for this is if we make it then i have a rock in the scoring area behind cover and its usuable. If the shots not made(the more likely scenario) then hope fully the center is opened up enough by ticking it over. I guess it also really depends on where the center guard is, is it tight to rings or just across the hog line. Tight posses more problems then long. Great question though.

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Registered: Jan 2005
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The tick shot is good to try with hack weight. You could also draw around the guard top 8 foot to take the scoring area away from him if your lead's strength is the draw game. A tick will open up the four foot for you wich is key when you have the hammer. The draw will do the same but you run the risk of junking up the four foot which could prove costly. Me 2 cents!

JH

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 207

One option (failing the tick shot) would be to throw at least one, and maybe both lead rocks through the house, and start double peels (since the opponent is likely to have set up another centre guard) until the front is clear, then keep the four foot open for your last and winning rock.

Coming around the centre with LR is an open invitation for the other team to steal the game. One or both lead rocks out front or behind the tee line is an equally open invitation for them to steal. Even with your rocks in front of the tee line, they would probably tap your rocks back to form a wall you would have to take out their rocks around. Playing the last end tied with LR, any rocks in play are a detrement to you, even your own rocks.

Last edited by murphyj87 on 12-08-12 at 10:20PM

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Registered: Jun 2007
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The above is quite true at the competitive level....but the poster said they were approaching this from the club level. I don't think too many double peels are played there. No sense attempting it if your players can't realistically make it.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 207

I guess that depends on what you define as "club level". It is also true that the limiting factor on a team is not shotmaking ability. The limiting factor on a team is the skip's thinking. Most club games are lost because skips don't know basic strategy.

Most club games are lost because brain dead akips leave, or put, too many rocks in play, and invite the other team to steal the game. With that brain dead thinking, even 3 up coming home with LR is not safe.

The description I gave is well within the shot making ability of any medium level club team. What some decribed is more in line with the abilities of a rental group or a section Z team, not an average, middle of the road club team.

The club teams I've played on or coached would do as I described and win 75% or more of games in any circumstances.

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Registered: Apr 2012
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I was the original poster - so I will tell you what I usually do and why. Then, I have another question about one of the options.

I don't try the tick shot because I don't think that we can consistently make it, and the downside to missing (lots of guards in play) is exactly what I am trying to avoid.

I have thought about throwing the rock(s) through. I usually, however, play to wings for two reasons. First, sometimes the opposing skip is dumb enough to chase after them. Second, if we succeed in peeling all of the guards, my last shot will be an open hit and having the lead's rock in the 12 foot means that I will not even have to stick around with the shot rock. Of course, the other team might freeze to my rock, but then I only need to draw to the 8 foot, and if I can't do that, I don't deserve to win anyway.

As long as we make peels, this strategy works. There will probably be an opportunity to double peel at some point, and usually this is a shot you can try without much risk (miss it and you get a single peel). Even if there is a guard left and the opposing skip makes a nice draw, I should have a makeable (though perhaps difficult) shot to win. If we miss a peel or two, however, and the opponents make their shots, this is when lose.

I don't draw around the guard, but I do see lots of skips do this. I certainly wouldn't do this with a tight guard, but I can see it working with a medium or long guard. The downside, however, is if the other team can make a run back or a tap back, I might be in real trouble. To those of you who would call this shot, walk me through the thought process. Suppose you succeed in drawing to the top 4 foot, buried behind the opponent's guard, with your lead's rock. Are you thinking of guarding it the entire end and having it been the winner, or are you still going to peel the center guards later?

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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418

quote:

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Originally posted by spiroth
I was the original poster - so I will tell you what I usually do and why. Then, I have another question about one of the options.

I don't try the tick shot because I don't think that we can consistently make it, and the downside to missing (lots of guards in play) is exactly what I am trying to avoid.

I have thought about throwing the rock(s) through. I usually, however, play to wings for two reasons. First, sometimes the opposing skip is dumb enough to chase after them. Second, if we succeed in peeling all of the guards, my last shot will be an open hit and having the lead's rock in the 12 foot means that I will not even have to stick around with the shot rock. Of course, the other team might freeze to my rock, but then I only need to draw to the 8 foot, and if I can't do that, I don't deserve to win anyway.

As long as we make peels, this strategy works. There will probably be an opportunity to double peel at some point, and usually this is a shot you can try without much risk (miss it and you get a single peel). Even if there is a guard left and the opposing skip makes a nice draw, I should have a makeable (though perhaps difficult) shot to win. If we miss a peel or two, however, and the opponents make their shots, this is when lose.

I don't draw around the guard, but I do see lots of skips do this. I certainly wouldn't do this with a tight guard, but I can see it working with a medium or long guard. The downside, however, is if the other team can make a run back or a tap back, I might be in real trouble. To those of you who would call this shot, walk me through the thought process. Suppose you succeed in drawing to the top 4 foot, buried behind the opponent's guard, with your lead's rock. Are you thinking of guarding it the entire end and having it been the winner, or are you still going to peel the center guards later?

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People draw behind because they always draw behind guards if they're there. I don't see any other reason to do it, unless you're playing with players that are going to flash a hit more than half the time but will make the draw, both weight and line, 3/4 of the time - Those players and teams are out there.

If I'm up one with, I either tick with hack or throw through, tied with, the draw to the wings is a possibility, mainly for the reason the OP gave - I might only have a pick at the end, and I need to score to win.

Even with club curlers, I like the tick if I know the ice for it (and presumably I do if I'm tied coming home), you just have to play it with hack so that there'll never be two guards. I usually play it across the face so that if the weight is light, it ends up missing the rock or hitting it even thinner, but if it's heavy it's a FGZ violation --- no chance of two center guards like you get if you're light when you're curling into the rock.

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Registered: Jan 2009
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The tick shot is a great shot to try, and if you go about it the right way you either make it, or a miss results in the same as throwing your rock through. The key things to remember in making a tick shot:
1. Always throw at least backline to hack weight at it. This is for a couple reasons. If you miss the rock completely you don't have something in the back of the house you don't want there. And if you hit too thick, you should push their rock all the way off so by the FGZ rules you replace it and nothing has changed. You don't want to throw too little weight and end up with 2 guards.
2. Call ice for the shot in a manner that it curls away from the rock you are ticking. You want to tick it as the rock your team threw is coming across the face of the rock you are ticking. This is for a couple reasons as well. First, it is easier to control this line with sweeping as opposed to curling into the rock you are ticking. And second, the shooter's rock will come off the ticked rock harder and have a better chance at possibly rolling out, leaving no guards.

Club curlers can make this shot, and honestly it is an exciting shot for a lead to make and talk about later in the lounge.

Youngen (by name, not age)

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Registered: Sep 2011
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What I *should* do:

Lead stone 1: Tick the guard over to a split where it's covering the edge of the 12 (ie meaningless), shooter rolls out

Opposing Lead stone 2: Replace Center guard

Lead Stone 2: Repeat Stone 1, to the other edge for variety perhaps

From there, continue getting rid of any stones the opposing skip puts covering my preferred draw line into the four foot, so that it is clear for my final draw, which I of course make. Then ask opposing skip what they want to drink.

What ends up happening:

Lead Stone 1: misses the guard altogether and slides through the house. I curse myself for giving 6 inches too much ice

Opposing Lead Stone 2: Draws behind the Center guard to be perfectly buried in the top 4 foot

My Lead Stone 2: Try to peel out the guard, end up hitting it square on the nose, promoting it onto the previously top 4 stone. Curse myself for giving 4 inches too little ice

Opposing 2nd Stone 1: Covers enough of my now center guard to take out the raise possibility

carry on until...

My Final stone: Now be forced to attempt a previously never before seen quadruple raise takeout hit and roll to the button through a gap only 1/4" wider than the stone. Somehow miraculously pull this off. Ask opposing skip what he wants to drink. Set the cause of stick curling back 20 years.

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I agree with a lot of the posters here. My team is too inconsistant with the tick, so I always draw around the guard. I call tight ice so that maybe we wreck and split the guard, but still only throw top 4 weight so if we do get around, we are still in good position.

I don't like the draw to the wings approach. They then come around the guard top 4 and you are chasing the rest of the end.

If my goal was to be anything other than a pretty good club curler, maybe I'd get my team to practice these things. But since I'm happy with where I'm at, I'll just keep with what's working with me.

One of the funniest lines I remember, playing against an older skip and the type of team that could draw anyone to death. Vice came down trying to talk the skip in to starting to peel guards. Skip says "I think you have our team confused with a team that knows how to hit" (it was funny at the time...)

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Registered: Apr 2005
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I had the same question about this scenario during a USCA competitive curling clinic and got this tidbit from Dave Jensen, who does this with his junior teams (and suggested it for club curling):

Put two rocks tee-line on the 12-foot, then peel everything the other way, and make your last draw or tap-back. Something like this for the Hammer (H) and non-hammer (NH) teams:

1st rock NH tight guard
2nd rock H tee-line 12-foot
3rd rock NH high guard
4th rock H frozen on first rock
5th rock NH come-around
then hammer team peels everything the other way until shot rock is exposed. With two rocks counting, you can chip and roll out with your last (or play a short runback double with their guard) and still score.

In club curling, the NH team will come around too soon (3rd rock of end), will bunch their guards for a double, or will miss their come-around. A double peel solves most of your woes if the NH team makes all their shots, and repeated peels puts the onus on the NH team to throw perfect guards.

In club curing the tick shot (strategically best) is almost never made, and the immediate come-around has to be made with your least skilled player where a miss long or short creates difficulties later in the end. Drawing to the side has an element of risk in that the NH team can get buried behind 2 guards if perfect, but the plus side is a miss by your lead does not hurt you or block off the 4-foot. When I try the tick shot in club play with a club lead, I get too many clean misses, a nose-raises to the house, or a chip and roll for another guard. (Ack.)

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1441

quote:

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Originally posted by RockDoc
I had the same question about this scenario during a USCA competitive curling clinic and got this tidbit from Dave Jensen, who does this with his junior teams (and suggested it for club curling):

Put two rocks tee-line on the 12-foot, then peel everything the other way, and make your last draw or tap-back. Something like this for the Hammer (H) and non-hammer (NH) teams:

1st rock NH tight guard
2nd rock H tee-line 12-foot
3rd rock NH high guard
4th rock H frozen on first rock
5th rock NH come-around
then hammer team peels everything the other way until shot rock is exposed. With two rocks counting, you can chip and roll out with your last (or play a short runback double with their guard) and still score.

In club curling, the NH team will come around too soon (3rd rock of end), will bunch their guards for a double, or will miss their come-around. A double peel solves most of your woes if the NH team makes all their shots, and repeated peels puts the onus on the NH team to throw perfect guards.

In club curing the tick shot (strategically best) is almost never made, and the immediate come-around has to be made with your least skilled player where a miss long or short creates difficulties later in the end. Drawing to the side has an element of risk in that the NH team can get buried behind 2 guards if perfect, but the plus side is a miss by your lead does not hurt you or block off the 4-foot. When I try the tick shot in club play with a club lead, I get too many clean misses, a nose-raises to the house, or a chip and roll for another guard. (Ack.)

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