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I thought "hooped" is only when the team (either with or without hammer) is in deep, serious trouble?

Throwing away the hammer because there's no shot to improve the situation is more neutral than that, in my opinion.

For example, in the 1st end of the mixed doubles gold match at 2018 Olympics, Morris/Lawes were already sitting two and just threw away the hammer, since they didn't see a way to score more.

(CBC) https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1732629571963 (restricted to CAN)
(WCF) https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/v...g-2018-replays/

Would you say that "Morris/Lawes were hooped at the end of the 1st!"? I don't think so. Maybe you can say that "Morris/Lawes got a stalemate deuce in the 1st!", or something like that, which is what I'm asking.

Last edited by curlingclips on 07-16-20 at 06:06PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
Lawes throws her 2nd last rock, a guard [...] In essence, Lawes "HOOPED HERSELF" by guarding on her 1st stone

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Last edited by curlingclips on 07-16-20 at 06:30PM

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Perhaps more generally, is there a term for throwing a rock away/through (not necessarily the hammer)?

Like, you can "hog" a rock, which is to throw it too light it doesn't even cross the hog line to be in play. Similarly, can you "hack" a rock, which is to throw it at the hack/at the broom with hack weight? (I thought I've heard this term used once by a curler, e.g. "Hack it!", but I'm not 100% sure).

Maybe a dedicated verb can be used, e.g. 'to ditch" a rock or something like that?

//edit: by the way, this didn't just come out of nowhere. I recently watched the HUN vs ESP match of the 2015 World Mixed Doubles Curling Championship, and that's what inspired me to ask this question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE7I_cp2V4Y

It's technically accurate to say that ESP forced HUN in 8th to gain the hammer for the extra end, which HUN stole, but that summary doesn't capture the fact that HUN had no shot with hammer in the 8th and ended up ditching it, and then returned the favor so ESP had no shot with hammer in the extra. Maybe the desperado circus shot to blank the extra was there if you can throw 5 second peels, but it's not a practicable shot for most curlers (or so the commentators say).

Last edited by curlingclips on 07-17-20 at 05:06AM

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Oh, hey, look what I've found!

"Matty Dunstone checkmate's Jacobs in the final end. #Curling"
https://twitter.com/curlingzone/sta...164341524303872

It's not clear to me what it means to checkmate your opponent in curling based on a 25 seconds video clip shot from ice level, but it could be referring to this "There's no shot!" situation that we're discussing!

So maybe people do say things like "ESP forced HUN into a checkmate/stalemate in the 8th, but HUN got their revenge and checkmated ESP in the extra to steal the win!".

I'm not sure if this use of "checkmate" by @CurlingZone can be applied on an end-by-end basis, though. It may be the case that you can only checkmate your opposition once in a game when it's for the win.

//edit: Oh hey, found another one!

https://twitter.com/CurlingZone/sta...496604245909504
"Checkmate! @tori_koana (JPN) leaves Barker with no shot in the 8th end."

Last edited by curlingclips on 07-17-20 at 06:48PM

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The term checkmate would not be a curling term, really, it is just a universal adjective describing the circumstances. I assume it would occur at the end of the game as well. Sometimes you'll hear curlers say "hooped" or if there are no mics, f'd. But as far as the stone itself, the stone that is thrown when the thrower is hooped, you just "throw it away", or "throw it into the boards", which, btw have gone the way of "hanging up the phone" which can't be done anymore either, but we still say it.

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That's why I initially thought stalemate was the more appropriate term, and to reserve checkmate for when it's for the win.

I just think that if you managed to play an end in such a way that your opposition chose to throw away the hammer, that it deserves a special recognition.

If you lie 2 after you throw your last rock, and there's no double, so the opposition draws for 1 with hammer, that's a textbook force.

If you managed to lock down the house so the opposition is already lying 1 with no reasonable shot to score more and they ended up throwing the hammer away, calling it just a force is an understatement in my opinion.

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I don't think casual viewers interpret stealing derogatorily. I'm no expert (I don't watch any other sport besides curling, seriously!), but quick research indicates that stealing happens in many ball sports (baseball, basketball).

But going back to this checkmate/stalemate issue, maybe it's just me, but I think curling could use a little bit more terms. "The beginning of the end", "the end of the end", "left side of the sheet" (right side if the camera angle flips, in-turn side depending on which hand you're throwing with, flip flops every end so it's the opposite going away vs coming home), last rock for team without hammer, all of those could use dedicated names.

I think it'd be cool if one side bumper is green and the other side is blue. Then we just talk about mountainside vs seaside, for example, and it doesn't matter in turn vs out turn, coming home vs going away, camera angles, etc. People know exactly which side of the sheet we're talking about, assuming they're not colorblind.

Last edited by curlingclips on 07-18-20 at 04:46PM

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As a newbie, I really appreciate this thread. I've been looking for it and now I am here.

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quote:

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Originally posted by paulbanks
As a newbie, I really appreciate this thread. I've been looking for it and now I am here.

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What is a "setup shot"? When is a shot a "setup shot" and when is it not?

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You probably won't get a great definition for this. A set-up shot is any shot that is played to set up a later shot. Technically a guard is a set-up shot (a guard played with no rocks in the house. If you're guarding a rock in the house, that's probably not a set-up shot). Basically you don't plan on scoring a point directly with the set-up shot, but that shot may allow you to score with a later shot. For example, a hit and roll might just be a hit and roll, but if rolling to the right spot potentially leaves a double takeout on the next shot, then it's a set-up shot.

Last edited by DrB on 11-05-20 at 02:07PM

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I agree with you that I think this sounds like a very vague term to define, but commentators/teams do use the phrase in very specific situations, i.e. they would explicitly verbalize "This is a setup shot", and I just want to understand what it is that they mean by that.

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that a setup shot suggests that something went horribly wrong and not according to plan, and you have no shot right now. If this is your last stone, you'd be fine with just throwing it away, but since you have one more rock, you try to make a setup shot as a last resort.

The setup shot will open up something for your last, but since it was not in the original plan, it also tends to be easy to neutralize. So you need a miss/half shot from your opposition for the setup shot to do any good.

The desperation in this critical situation tends to be obvious, so pressure mounts, and huge drama ensues if the curling gods were in your favor.

I could be completely wrong about all of that, though. Maybe anything except the hammer is basically a setup shot, so the phrase is basically meaningless.

Last edited by curlingclips on 11-05-20 at 02:37PM

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You might be overthinking it... A setup shot is a shot that specifically sets up a following shot. 1) It doesn't need to be a get out of jail situation. For example, a team with last rock has an open hit available, but opts to play the freeze to line up a shot for 2 on their next. I'd call that a setup shot. 2) There's a plan for every rock thrown before last rock, but not all shots specifically set up the following shot. I think a setup shot should 'setup' a specific shot. Like I said, you might hit and roll to not group your rocks. Or you might peel a rock to open things up. Those don't set up a specific following shot. But if you hit and roll to an area to leave yourself a double takeout on the next shot, then I'd call it a setup shot.

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You're probably right that setup shots are more general than what I have in mind. You hear it all the times, that leads need to place guards perfectly to set up the end, that you don't want to "set anything up" for the opposition, etc.

Sometimes they do say something like "Guys, we've got nothing! We just have to make a setup shot so we'll have something with our last!", but those are rare. I probably just remember those moments more because of the extra drama.

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This should be well-defined: what is a "line shot"?

When the team discusses a shot to be made and they agree that "This is a line shot", what are they agreeing on?

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quote:

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Originally posted by curlingclips
This should be well-defined: what is a "line shot"?

When the team discusses a shot to be made and they agree that "This is a line shot", what are they agreeing on?

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quote:

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Originally posted by alex

It means that the direction is all important. Speed of the rock doesn't matter.

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Last edited by curlingclips on 11-07-20 at 05:58PM

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The opposite is a weight shot, where the line doesn’t need to be precise but the weight needs to be perfect.
Space weight - enough weight for the rock to end up in the ‘space’ between the back line and the hack. Coined by Wesley Forget.

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What do they mean when they say "You don't have to whip it!" or "I'm not whipping it!", etc?

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgjlYVhGkIc&t=1m44s

Last edited by curlingclips on 11-14-20 at 10:50AM

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Whip it means throw it hard. Peel weight.

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So it's pure weight and nothing about a specific technique? Because some curlers have specific hand techniques to add some weight.

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX2p79EfmY&t=56m35s
"Emma really extends on those peels, she just shoves them!"

So I agree that to "whip it" is to throw it hard, but maybe it's also a specific reference to this special "add" technique from the hand, in addition to the kick?

Some people think this "add" sacrifices accuracy, so maybe when they say "You don't have to whip it!", they're saying "You do have to throw it hard, but you can meet the weight required to make this shot with just the kick, no need to add with the hand!".

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This is probably obvious, but just in case: what does "Right up!" mean as a sweeping call? Often used repeatedly, e,g. "Right up! Right up! Right up!".

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would like to see a video of someone using the 'whip it' technique if you can find one.

right up probably means to keep sweeping, right up to the target.

But usually I've heard 'right up' said in reference to the speed of the ice. If the speed is right up, the ice is as fast as it usually gets.

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Unfortunately I'm still not good enough to "read" curling deliveries at technical level. It took me a while before I even noticed that the rock is rotating down the ice due to deliberate turn. Took me even longer to notice clockwise vs counterclockwise. I still can't read if a thrower is on the broom or not.

For example, Mike Harris saw immediately that Niklas Edin poked it out wide with his extension that one time and blundered a 4-ender vs Brad Gushue in the 2017 Canadian Open final. I wouldn't be able to see that live, and I'm still not sure if I'm seeing it with slow motion replay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVCF7-PGY34

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quote:

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Originally posted by curlingclips
For example, Mike Harris saw immediately that Niklas Edin poked it out wide with his extension that one time and blundered a 4-ender vs Brad Gushue in the 2017 Canadian Open final. I wouldn't be able to see that live, and I'm still not sure if I'm seeing it with slow motion replay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVCF7-PGY34

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