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| 09-27-22 02:30PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
Extra end
My thoughts are that I’m fine with a draw to the button in regular spiel or any event that does not lead to a provincial or national or world title. If it’s day one at a wct triple knock out go for it.
BUT, if you’re playing in a provincial play down to represent your province, then extra end, even in the preliminary games. You should never be knocked out of a qualifying game without playing the extra end. Yes the advantage goes to the team with hammer but over the course of the game, they “managed” to have the hammer in the extra and deserve it.
Just my thoughts.
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| 09-27-22 03:18PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
I think for a more effective discussion, I should add that we should be discussing ways to eliminate extra ends. We're not looking for the usual tired opinions against elimination. We should be accepting that extra ends will be eliminated at all levels of curling, so we should be brainstorming for ideas on how we can do that.
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| 09-27-22 04:03PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
Jason Gunnlaugson commented on the 0.5 point idea.
https://twitter.com/CurlingGunner/s...848072425033728
quote:
Half point solves the three biggest "problems" in the sport imo
Gets the first end win % closer to 50 each (biggest problem)
Gets rid of extra ends (current focus of the powers that be)
Allows champ play to stay 10 ends longer which has a major positive financial impact WCF
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| 09-27-22 06:23PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Why the need to eliminate extra ends and why do both teams have to have an equal chance in the extra end.
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| 09-27-22 06:45PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Why the need to eliminate extra ends
Biggest reason is broadcast. It's apparently a nightmare to broadcast curling not knowing if it can finish in a block of time, because of extra ends, which technically can go on indefinitely.
I concede that a different broadcast payment model can address the issue, but supposedly that's not the current reality we're in. Currently broadcasters have to buy a big block of time probably just enough for 1 or 2 extra ends, and they have to pay for the whole big block even if the game ends early.
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| 09-27-22 06:51PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
why do both teams have to have an equal chance in the extra end.
That's one of those fundamental questions that curling need to address.
Do both teams have to have equal chance at the start of the game, even?
Right now, the team that starts the game with hammer has 60% chance to win at elite level.
Is that acceptable, or do we need that to go down to 50%?
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| 09-27-22 07:30PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Technically, both teams start the game with a 50/50 chance to win since both teams have an equal chance to win the draw to the button for hammer.
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| 09-27-22 07:46PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Technically, both teams start the game with a 50/50 chance to win since both teams have an equal chance to win the draw to the button for hammer.
True, but it would be interesting to ponder if curling would be a better sport if we change the rules such that, say Gushue and Edin playing their best against each a hundred times would be 50-50 after one hundred games in which Edin starts with hammer, and also 50-50 after another one hundred games in which Gushue starts with hammer.
That's what Gunnlaugson hypothesize might happen if we set the price of LSFE at 0.5 point, which also has a bonus effect of eliminating extra ends.
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| 09-27-22 09:47PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
Again, why the need to eliminate the extra end(s)????
Every other televised sport does not have a time limit.
Lose hammer if an end is blanked would solve a lot of so called problems.
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| 09-27-22 10:27PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by guido
Every other televised sport does not have a time limit.
That's not true. In boxing, if it's a draw, there's no additional round, that's it, fight's over. And boxing is probably the most lucrative televised sport event there is in terms of dollars.
Speaking of boxing, the 0.5 point proposal is basically similar to the idea that in case of a draw in a fight for the title, the champion retains the title. "You gotta beat the champ to be the champ!", as they say. Or, as Ric Flair said, "To be The Man, you gotta beat The Man!".
The 0.5 point proposal is basically equivalent to saying that if Edin starts the game with hammer, Gushue who throws the first rock of the game is The Man. With the help of the hammer advantage, Edin has to beat Gushue to win, but Gushue does NOT have to beat Edin, because Gushue is The Man in this game. If score is tied after 10 ends, Gushue remains The Man and Gushue wins.
Personally I think 0.5 point is easier to understand, but there are other ways to express the very simple idea borrowing the concept from other sports.
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| 09-27-22 10:36PM |
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hailstone
Swing Artist
Registered: May 2018
Location:
Posts: 407 |
I'm fine with ties. You play eight or ten ends and can't determine a winner, then nobody deserves to win. Or lose.
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| 09-27-22 10:44PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by hailstone
I'm fine with ties. You play eight or ten ends and can't determine a winner, then nobody deserves to win. Or lose.
In a tournament bracket, who advances? Do you just defer to the curling gods and flip a coin?
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| 09-28-22 01:46AM |
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hailstone
Swing Artist
Registered: May 2018
Location:
Posts: 407 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
In a tournament bracket, who advances? Do you just defer to the curling gods and flip a coin?
Have you heard of DSC?
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| 09-28-22 02:52AM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote:
Originally posted by guido
Again, why the need to eliminate the extra end(s)????
Every other televised sport does not have a time limit.
Lose hammer if an end is blanked would solve a lot of so called problems.
Lose the hammer is a bad idea.
There are teams good enough to force their opponents by making 2-3 doubles in an end.
That's all it takes to run a team off the sheet. Forces them to take one, since blanking isn't possible anymore.
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| 09-28-22 03:09AM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Why the need to eliminate extra ends and why do both teams have to have an equal chance in the extra end.
1. Extra ends throw a wrench into every level of organized event. At the Slams, they delayed the schedule. TV hates them too, since a 10 end game fits so well into a 3-hour window. Go an extra and it's usually about 3:05-3:10. Now we're stealing someone else's time. 8 ends fits cleanly into 2.5 hours.
2. I believe that the whole reason the hammer advantage at the beginning of the game is so big at the top level is that that tie game result is so lopsided at the end.
The hammer team has to maintain a tie to get hammer in the 10th end. They don't "have" to do anything, and as the game gets more skilled, the interest in the hammer team taking any risk decreases, since a single mistake might be too much to overcome.
In some cases, especially when two of the best men's teams get together, we see a low scoring, low risk affair, especially if the team without hammer doesn't bring pressure.
It's going to continue trending this way as teams keep getting better and better. Analytics says don't take risks when leading. And you've got a good lead when you're tied with hammer. ~60%.
A more even solution in the extra end, would diminish the strength of having hammer to start the game.
We need a more solution where the chance of winning is closer to 75% where it tends to be on average, versus 90% at the Slam levels.
I don't believe Gushue has lost a game in the last 4 years when tied with hammer in the last end.
The higher the skill of the teams, the less entertaining the game becomes. Kind of an oxymorons for entertainment value.
And we wouldn't be here without the money that Television brings and interest in the sport driving it.
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| 09-28-22 04:46AM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
So then, if you changed conditions for each event, more club level ice conditions and rocks, where players did not have an existing book on the rocks and the ice varied greatly from event to event, you would lose the video game feel of the game and shots would be less automatic.
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| 09-28-22 04:53AM |
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hailstone
Swing Artist
Registered: May 2018
Location:
Posts: 407 |
quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
1. Extra ends throw a wrench into every level of organized event. At the Slams, they delayed the schedule. TV hates them too, since a 10 end game fits so well into a 3-hour window. Go an extra and it's usually about 3:05-3:10. Now we're stealing someone else's time. 8 ends fits cleanly into 2.5 hours.
Let's also end conceeding games, as TV surely hates the 30 minutes of dead time that comes about. If you're down 10-1 going into the final end, you'll just have to fight to score 10 somehow.
Extra time exists and is supported by football, baseball, basketball, hockey (the NHL actually went out of their way to add ways to lengthen regular season games, first through overtime, and then through a post-overtime shootout!) TV will gladly make whatever time it needs to broadcast a compelling product, which is exactly what sporting events going down to the wire are.
Two simple ways to make curling broadcasts more compelling:
1. Take away the hammer for blank ends. This is turning into a plague of inconsequential time-wasting, especially in men's play.
2. Cut total thinking time in half. You can shave 20 minutes off the broadcast with just as much curling, while introducing additional drama to the contests.
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| 09-28-22 08:00AM |
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MeaghanEdwards
Drawmaster
Registered: Aug 2018
Location:
Posts: 699 |
Is curling the only sport that wants less of its sport?
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| 09-28-22 08:01AM |
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Observer
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: River Falls, WI, USA
Posts: 445 |
I would do two final shots. Team with hammer keeps it, but the team without gets to set up two pre-positioned stones: one in the free guard zone and the other anywhere they want in the house except on the button itself.
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| 09-28-22 10:44AM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
Lose the hammer is a bad idea.
There are teams good enough to force their opponents by making 2-3 doubles in an end.
That's all it takes to run a team off the sheet. Forces them to take one, since blanking isn't possible anymore.
On the other hand, it would force teams to go for multiple points. More rocks in play. = more scoring. Chance of an extra end is less. Right now, after 8 shots, the outcome of an end is fairly predictable.
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| 09-28-22 01:36PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by MeaghanEdwards
Is curling the only sport that wants less of its sport?
No.
Boxing used to go unlimited rounds, then 15 rounds became the norm, now 12.
Tour de France was originally an endurance race with riders riding all through the night.
When Bobby Fischer became a world chess champion in 1972, the format was best of 24. By 2013, Magnus Carlsen only had to play best of 12.
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| 09-28-22 03:38PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
Taking away hammer for blank ends just means the team without hammer will play for the blank instead of the team with hammer. If anything it will lead to more blank ends.
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| 09-28-22 04:20PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
quote:
Originally posted by guido
On the other hand, it would force teams to go for multiple points. More rocks in play. = more scoring. Chance of an extra end is less. Right now, after 8 shots, the outcome of an end is fairly predictable.
No it wouldn't. The team without hammer just starts playing for the blank as soon as they are allowed to.
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| 09-28-22 07:05PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Taking away hammer for blank ends just means the team without hammer will play for the blank instead of the team with hammer. If anything it will lead to more blank ends.
There are already teams good enough to force their opponents into taking a single by hitting. Just need to make 2 runback doubles. (guard plus rock in the house)
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