Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Eau Claire Wisconsin
Posts: 20

My solution is this: Take the top four in OOM points and the winner of Nationals (if it's someone outside the top four in OOM) and have a short round-robin type playoff for the right to go to worlds.

This rewards the teams who put in the grind to earn points, but also makes sure the that the team who goes to Worlds is peaking at the right time. Most likely the winner of Nationals would be one of the top OOM teams, but if not, they have to prove themselves twice to make sure winning Nationals was not a fluke. If they beat those top teams twice in a row then deserve to go.

The "World Trials" would be held in a central location and the teams travel expenses would be paid by the USCA/USOC so the extra tournament wouldn't cause extra expenses.

This would ensure that the best team from the season who is peaking at the right time goes to Worlds. That should give us our best chance which is the whole point of all this right?

Then Nationals are now essentially separate from the World team selection and a team like Brady Clarke has a fair chance to earn the berth to Worlds by being a team that performed well all year and peaked at the right time.

As of January 30th, the top four are Shuster, Brown, Clark and Birr. They would be in the playoff and if Dropkin were to win Nationals they would be as well. All of those top four OOM teams have World/Olympic experience and would be good representatives at Worlds. And if Dropkin could beat them all twice then how could you argue they aren't the best bet?

If that's too complicated (and it seems pretty straightforward to me) then just make the Nationals the end point and give the world berth to the top OOM team. End of story.

And one more thing - my solution completely takes HP out of the conversation and that should make everyone happy! HP does their thing and makes the best teams possible. Then those teams go out and win or lose on the ice like everybody else. Yes, it is time-consuming and expensive for the non-HP teams to earn the points, but that's just how it goes. Clark and Birr did it this year and others can too.

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Jeff Thompson

Last edited by jtphoto2020 on 02-11-16 at 05:25PM

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so with shuster guaranteed to finish top 4 will he be team USA a worlds no matter what or if brown wins will he get to go?

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quote:

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Originally posted by jtphoto2020
My solution is this: Take the top four in OOM points and the winner of Nationals (if it's someone outside the top four in OOM) and have a short round-robin type playoff for the right to go to worlds.

This rewards the teams who put in the grind to earn points, but also makes sure the that the team who goes to Worlds is peaking at the right time. Most likely the winner of Nationals would be one of the top OOM teams, but if not, they have to prove themselves twice to make sure winning Nationals was not a fluke. If they beat those top teams twice in a row then deserve to go.

The "World Trials" would be held in a central location and the teams travel expenses would be paid by the USCA/USOC so the extra tournament wouldn't cause extra expenses.

This would ensure that the best team from the season who is peaking at the right time goes to Worlds. That should give us our best chance which is the whole point of all this right?

Then Nationals are now essentially separate from the World team selection and a team like Brady Clarke has a fair chance to earn the berth to Worlds by being a team that performed well all year and peaked at the right time.

As of January 30th, the top four are Shuster, Brown, Clark and Birr. They would be in the playoff and if Dropkin were to win Nationals they would be as well. All of those top four OOM teams have World/Olympic experience and would be good representatives at Worlds. And if Dropkin could beat them all twice then how could you argue they aren't the best bet?

If that's too complicated (and it seems pretty straightforward to me) then just make the Nationals the end point and give the world berth to the top OOM team. End of story.

And one more thing - my solution completely takes HP out of the conversation and that should make everyone happy! HP does their thing and makes the best teams possible. Then those teams go out and win or lose on the ice like everybody else. Yes, it is time-consuming and expensive for the non-HP teams to earn the points, but that's just how it goes. Clark and Birr did it this year and others can too.

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Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Eau Claire Wisconsin
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Originally posted by youngen


Please don't take offense to this, but I really think that an extra event is an awful idea.

USOC will not foot the bill, unless you mean by default from the money they already give the USCA annually. The USCA already operates on a thin budget that last year saw the cutting of streaming video coverage until private funding accomplished it. So paying for a venue and ice techs to put on this event sounds like a bankrupting idea from the get go. Now add athlete expenses to that and what not, and I think we might as well triple our dues or scratch this one off the board.

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Jeff Thompson

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Looking on as an outsider, I'm still wondering just what the "point" is of assigning points at all (at least on an annual basis)?

If you need to accumulate points, then make it for something more realistic. If the USCA doesn't want to finance, for example an Olympic Qualifying Bonspiel, then points could be used to determine your Olympic reps. (although Canada's Olympic Qualifier gets a very good crowd).

Looking at your major rinks, we tend to see the same faces every year (hint: I was at the old Winnipeg Arena when Debbie defeated Colleen-that was the last American World Title (not counting Junior/Senior) and we should have seen more new rinks on the top step-or at least the second step by now).

The successful American rinks continue to be the ones that comprise players from the same area who got themselves together (I know that Erika lives up here but she's the exception that proves the rule). What was the rationale for having some committee decide who plays with whom and shouldn't the success (or lack thereof) of this committee have been evaluated by now...as in what would "The Donald" day?

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Jim

Last edited by Jimbobogie on 02-12-16 at 12:24PM

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quote:

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I'm just trying to come up with possible solutions to a problem that everyone seems willing to complain about but I do not see many solutions being offered.

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But how do Elite Curling and Club Curling relate to each other? I would contend that in the US, they are completely not linked, except for the obvious fact they they both are curling.

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There is no link except every 4 years when Olympic curling is televised. That seems to create a groundswell of interest, regardless of how well USA does. In non-Olympic years, most club curlers do not even know that nationals are being played.

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quote:

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Originally posted by birvin


Yikes, that seems cynical.

I think maybe if you assume that USA will continue to do poorly in international competitions then sure, there is very little or no link. But man, if USA wins a medal someday, we will see a push of interest in curling and the link will be clear.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChiefIceMinion


I'd argue that the only link between elite and club curling is media exposure, not success at the international level.

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When parents see US medalists in curling on TV they are more willing to invest money and volunteer time to those programs because there is a perceived payout for hard work and dedication to the sport. If you look at the largest youth based athletic programs football,hockey,soccer,baseball... there is a lot of money poured into camps, sponsorships, and equipment. The reason that so much money is spent is to put on a college application, talk about on a first date or discuss in a job interview. So from that aspect there is definitely a visible connection between success at the Olympic level and club level. Especially in the development of high school and junior curling programs as a status symbol.

The Olympic dream is as American as apple pie, but it is centered on the idea that an athlete can go from amateur to Olympian without being a professional athlete if they try hard enough. If people are told that no matter how hard you try you will never be an Olympic curler you lose the people who want to join to be competitive and what is left is people who want to drink beer. US curling needs to insensitivize competition not recreation. More golf less mini golf.

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quote:

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The US team won a medal at the 2006 Olympics, but the 2010 and 2014 Olympics saw larger open house turnouts

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fourscore
When parents see US medalists in curling on TV they are more willing to invest money and volunteer time to those programs because there is a perceived payout for hard work and dedication to the sport. If you look at the largest youth based athletic programs football,hockey,soccer,baseball... there is a lot of money poured into camps, sponsorships, and equipment. The reason that so much money is spent is to put on a college application, talk about on a first date or discuss in a job interview. So from that aspect there is definitely a visible connection between success at the Olympic level and club level. Especially in the development of high school and junior curling programs as a status symbol.

The Olympic dream is as American as apple pie, but it is centered on the idea that an athlete can go from amateur to Olympian without being a professional athlete if they try hard enough. If people are told that no matter how hard you try you will never be an Olympic curler you lose the people who want to join to be competitive and what is left is people who want to drink beer. US curling needs to insensitivize competition not recreation. More golf less mini golf.

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
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A healthy and wide ranging discussion. Forgive me if I interrupt and go back to Men's Nationals for just a brief minute. I really don't mean to stop the give-and-take.

Face beats Brownie to get to the Finals and another crack at Brady.

Face, in my humble opinion, is the best team in the nation by a considerable amount. Brady, in my estimation, is the second best team in the nation by a considerable amount (Brownie's close, but then there is a dropoff). Yet Brady has a distinct advantage in this game because they are way more attune to the latest in Directional Sweeping. The Directional Sweeping seems to ruin as many line calls as it helps for Face Team (however, TyGer George is running a really good house for their skip's rocks). The B Bunch, on the other hand, seem to just play around with it and almost laugh. Obviously they've worked long and worked hard at it.

So an intriguing matchup.

The over/under on the WCF coming out with new sweeping rules is Wednesday noon Greenwich Mean Time. This ain't curlin' and they won't tolerate it at Worlds. I expect horsehair will be banned. I suspect hair under 1.5 inches will be banned. I suspect walking behind the rock will be banned as will switching sides mid-shot. I suspect sweeping that isn't more perpendicular to the path will get a penalty of No Sweeping Your Next Stone. I'm just glad I'm not on the Rules Committee.

I think icemakers can help neutralize Directional Sweeping, but I have run no trials. Step 1: Throw away that (expletive) sandpaper. Step 2: Get you curl from a larger pebble size using your Coarse pebblehead. We will all lose a second or two of speed, but we'll also lose the snowflake effect when those rocks come out of the sandpaper effect.

This is not to say that the only reason the B Bunch might win is the sweeping. They had a great end to the year and came into this as serious contenders before the horsehair even left the broom bags.

Ben Tucker

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I'll take the "Over" on that "when will WCF post rules" action.

THey aren't gonna make that huge of a change to conditions of play between National selections and Worlds...that's unfair to the max.

They'll make rules in the offseason...I think you're about smack dab on what the rules will be...I'll be interested in knowing if we are now going to have to start bringing back "hog line" officials, only now to watch for sweeping violations...we dropped those when we went Eye On The Hog...but the sweeping rules are gonna need enforcers.

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If the bet is "Before Worlds or After Worlds", Alan, you have a bet. I suspect that you already owe me a drink from sometime or other. We'll call this one double or nothing.

No way they let this stuff into Worlds.

Ben Tucker

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Come to Worlds in Vegas in 2018 and I'll buy you a curling stone (assuming they bring that drink back...and judging from the way it was selling at the Continental Cup...it's a safe bet)

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quote:

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Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Come to Worlds in Vegas in 2018 and I'll buy you a curling stone (assuming they bring that drink back...and judging from the way it was selling at the Continental Cup...it's a safe bet)

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Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.

http://www.nerdcurl.com

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Curling is, and has always been a team sport.

Balance, and weight control are still required to throw a rock at the top level.

Reading ice, proper strategy, and making key line calls are still required to skip at the top level.

Sweeping still requires fitness and athleticism. Skill and technique.

If anything the new sweeping makes curling more of a team sport.

I think undoing this evolution to the game is a mistake.

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quote:

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Originally posted by pal
Curling is, and has always been a team sport.

Balance, and weight control are still required to throw a rock at the top level.

Reading ice, proper strategy, and making key line calls are still required to skip at the top level.

Sweeping still requires fitness and athleticism. Skill and technique.

If anything the new sweeping makes curling more of a team sport.

I think undoing this evolution to the game is a mistake.

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Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Vienna, VA
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quote:

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Originally posted by pal
Curling is, and has always been a team sport.

Balance, and weight control are still required to throw a rock at the top level.

Reading ice, proper strategy, and making key line calls are still required to skip at the top level.

Sweeping still requires fitness and athleticism. Skill and technique.

If anything the new sweeping makes curling more of a team sport.

I think undoing this evolution to the game is a mistake.

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If we wanted to make it about athleticism we'd go back to sweeping corn. One sweeper at a time isn't an advancement that furthers athleticism.

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Brady the fifth at worlds?? :-) Maybe?

(ok, let's be honest, The USCA HPP is all cronyism, so it won't be Brady)...

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I recall a comment sometime ago on here about recommending a sports psychologist. From hearing a certain someones comments on the mic during the finals (someone out on the ice), I would have to agree with that recommendation...

Last edited by IMWright on 02-13-16 at 08:05PM

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Some of the talk on the ice was pretty cringe worthy. Hamilton asks Shuster in the 4th end, drawing for 1 down 3-0, "Can we win down 2 without (the hammer)?". Dude, it's the 4th end!

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