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| 01-15-22 02:14AM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
Will Curl BC investigate Kamloops Disaster?
A week afterwards with dozens of participants infected and sick with Covid, its fair to say that the BC Men's and Women's Championships were a disaster.
With allegations now surfacing of athlete's and staff allegedly violating event protocols and more should there be a full investigation by Curl BC?
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| 01-15-22 11:31AM |
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668 |
Re: Will Curl BC investigate Kamloops Disaster?
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
A week afterwards with dozens of participants infected and sick with Covid, its fair to say that the BC Men's and Women's Championships were a disaster.
With allegations now surfacing of athlete's and staff allegedly violating event protocols and more should there be a full investigation by Curl BC?
So the BC provincials were operated within a burst bubble? How were protocols violated? Lack of masks, mixing & mingling? Ironically looks like Alberta & Saskatchewan ran great events with no reports of outbreaks.
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| 01-15-22 01:08PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
There are multiple reports of participants violating the off ice, remain in your accommodations between games protocols, and going to restaurants, pubs and a local casino.
Apparently one team also witnessed a transgression, reported it to an official expecting it to be in confidence. The official promptly told the other team, betraying that confidence, and there was a confrontation.
I've asked a member of Curl BC's board to look into this and consider conducting a full investigation.
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| 01-15-22 02:04PM |
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alex
Swing Artist
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Quesnel
Posts: 420 |
It was still better than not having the playdowns, in my opinion. Big mess in Ontario with appointing teams. No one in BC would have picked Richard or Arsenault and I doubt few would have predicted their win.
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| 01-15-22 02:17PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
Alex I wholeheartedly agree. Having participated in the seniors last fall under similar protocols (except the 'remain in hotel between games and no dining out' rule), I felt that it was possible to have the events and I remain a big thumbs up for Curl BC going to the PHO and convincing them we could run a safe championship.
Unfortunately something went very wrong in Kamloops and it's fair, IMO, that all stakeholders know why and any necessary actions be taken.
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| 01-15-22 02:47PM |
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Alex I wholeheartedly agree. Having participated in the seniors last fall under similar protocols (except the 'remain in hotel between games and no dining out' rule), I felt that it was possible to have the events and I remain a big thumbs up for Curl BC going to the PHO and convincing them we could run a safe championship.
Unfortunately something went very wrong in Kamloops and it's fair, IMO, that all stakeholders know why and any necessary actions be taken.
It’s shame the protocols weren’t enforced. Now Curl BC will have a dubious reputation with the public health unit. Perhaps severe penalties should have been in place unless of course the teams violating the protocols were Curl BC favourites
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| 01-15-22 03:01PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
I've asked a member of Curl BC's board to look into this and consider conducting a full investigation.
Good for you.
You do you Karen.
That will help change everything that has happened.
Trigger the media . Hooray.
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| 01-15-22 03:39PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by guido
Good for you.
You do you Karen.
That will help change everything that has happened.
Trigger the media . Hooray.
Lmfao! Good one!
FYI-CBC broke the story last Wednesday so you're just a little late to that party.
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| 01-15-22 03:44PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlerbroad
It’s shame the protocols weren’t enforced. Now Curl BC will have a dubious reputation with the public health unit. Perhaps severe penalties should have been in place unless of course the teams violating the protocols were Curl BC favourites
There actually are penalties in place for violation of any Curl BC rules (fines and suspensions I believe).
As for their reputation, this is also a good reason to have the investigation and take whatever action necessary. It would show all stakeholders that they take the situation seriously. It's even possible that they were looking into it already. However, the lack of any public statement to that effect has yet to be made.
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| 01-16-22 08:58AM |
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Observer
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: River Falls, WI, USA
Posts: 445 |
If I were a worker or volunteer at a curling event and I knew that a public service busybody will be watching us like a hawk for any violations of protocols, I’d quit.
This is especially true now where Omicron can’t be stopped except with a well fitted N95 mask that you never take off while at the same time vaccinations have largely tamed the disease. Simply require proof of vaccinations or recent recovery from the actual disease amongst all attendees and then let it rip, The level of severe, hospital-level disease amongst such people is now down at the level we used to just accept every year during cold and flu season.
The same is not true for unvaccinated people, so don’t let them in.
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| 01-16-22 09:06AM |
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oliviertoisel
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587 |
quote:
Originally posted by Observer
If I were a worker or volunteer at a curling event and I knew that a public service busybody will be watching us like a hawk for any violations of protocols, I’d quit.
This is especially true now where Omicron can’t be stopped except with a well fitted N95 mask that you never take off while at the same time vaccinations have largely tamed the disease. Simply require proof of vaccinations or recent recovery from the actual disease amongst all attendees and then let it rip, The level of severe, hospital-level disease amongst such people is now down at the level we used to just accept every year during cold and flu season.
The same is not true for unvaccinated people, so don’t let them in.
If everyone at such a large event got Omicron then at least some would be likely to end up in hospital. Statistically, no?
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| 01-16-22 09:58AM |
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Observer
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: River Falls, WI, USA
Posts: 445 |
I don’t know what the number of people at the BC Scotties was, but for the sake of argument and easier calculations, let’s say it was 1000.
This chart is from next door Alberta and shows the hospitalization rates from COVID over the last 120 days and breaks it down amongst people who’ve had 3 doses of vaccine, 2 doses, and none at all, and breaks it down by age groups.
https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/...0589372418?s=21
The rates are reported per 100,000, so to predict how many hospitalizations you’d get from a 1000 person event, divide the numbers by 1000.
If you look at just the 2-dose columns, it adds up to an expected 1.6 hospitalization for a 1000 person event. If you look at the 3-dose column, it will shake out to 0.29.
Now, also figure in that about 2/3-3/4 of this data was the earlier Delta infections, and that Omicron is proving to be 3-4 times less virulent amongst the vaccinated, and the chance of hospitalization in an event this size falls still further.
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| 01-16-22 10:17AM |
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johnnysmoke
Drawmaster
Registered: Nov 2002
Location:
Posts: 612 |
Agree for the most part with the above. The thread title including the word "disaster"? Not so much. Some curlers and volunteers with a headache and runny nose, maybe some tiredness for three days is not my idea of a disaster.
Covid changed incredibly fast since mid December and our response has lagged.
Every provincial association had to make a decision about whether to hold or cancel their events.
I suspect that looking in the rear view mirror that the provinces not holding the events did a disservice to our curlers.
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| 01-16-22 10:35AM |
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MeaghanEdwards
Drawmaster
Registered: Aug 2018
Location:
Posts: 699 |
There are kids in the ICU with Omricon, it's not all sniffles for all. I'm fine with provinces not holding provincials this season.
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| 01-16-22 10:52AM |
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Observer
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: River Falls, WI, USA
Posts: 445 |
This chart is the ICU numbers in Alberta.
https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/...5169988620?s=21
All of the child ICU patients are unvaccinated. All of them.
If an event requires proof of vaccination for admission, I see no reason it can’t go ahead.
(Obviously, this was not true before vaccinations and before Omicron. The situation is different now, though. )
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| 01-16-22 11:19AM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by Observer
I don’t know what the number of people at the BC Scotties was, but for the sake of argument and easier calculations, let’s say it was 1000.
This chart is from next door Alberta and shows the hospitalization rates from COVID over the last 120 days and breaks it down amongst people who’ve had 3 doses of vaccine, 2 doses, and none at all, and breaks it down by age groups.
https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/...0589372418?s=21
The rates are reported per 100,000, so to predict how many hospitalizations you’d get from a 1000 person event, divide the numbers by 1000.
If you look at just the 2-dose columns, it adds up to an expected 1.6 hospitalization for a 1000 person event. If you look at the 3-dose column, it will shake out to 0.29.
Now, also figure in that about 2/3-3/4 of this data was the earlier Delta infections, and that Omicron is proving to be 3-4 times less virulent amongst the vaccinated, and the chance of hospitalization in an event this size falls still further.
First off you're making Omicron the issue. It's not. Omicron and a large number of sick curlers, volunteers and staff is the result.
Curl BC went to bat for its curlers back in December by going to our PHO, after they mandated the cancelation of all sports tournaments across BC, and convinced them they could run a safe event. They used the template and experience from their successful Seniors Provincials last fall. I was there as a competitor and it worked. Everyone followed the rules and,
to the best of my knowledge, not a single participant-athlete or otherwise-got sick.
The only thing they had to do now was tweek the protocol for Omicron-because of its highly contagious nature. One of those tweeks was the rule that between games teams returned to their accommodations and stayed there.
Food (or groceries) were to be delivered or a quick trip made for takeout only. Dining in at any restaurant was prohibited. All of this clearly communicated to everyone at the the event in the competition guidebook they all received.
Curl BC convinced the PHO to get special permission to host this championship based on those protocols. I commended them for this then, I still do today.
So fast forward to last week and the reports of individuals ignoring those protocols and dining in at restaurants, pubs and hitting casinos before and during the event.
Those folks, if the reports are true, decided the rules did not apply to them and thus put every single person at higher risk.
That's the real issue: folks flagrantly disobeying clear protocols and not giving a damn about the safety of others. And for what? To flirt with your server or play a hand of blackjack?
Yes, it is certainly possible that Omicron might have got in anyway. But you know what? We will never know because of those selfish few who decided the rules, that 95% followed, did not apply to them.
The result is over half the field has reported infections and symptoms. There is still not a full accounting of how many there got ill. The locals I know here that got it said its worse than any flu or cold.
Currently it appears that no one has been hospitalized and here's hoping it stays that way.
So let's all put our YouTube fueled covid expertise on pause, because its not the issue. And for the record, I heard from a member of the Curl BC board yesterday that they are aware of the incidents and started a full, detailed investigation almost immediately after the first positive tests began to be reported.
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Last edited by jamcan on 01-16-22 at 11:23AM
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| 01-16-22 12:17PM |
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oliviertoisel
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587 |
Some very compelling points there.
I also wonder what happens if the Scotties requires a test to get into the bubble and a BC champ without symptoms finds out they had COVID at that time. Are they excluded as they need 2 weeks from positive test like you do for other situations?
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| 01-16-22 01:31PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
Fair question that can only be answered by the CCA.
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| 01-16-22 07:23PM |
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oliviertoisel
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587 |
quote:
Originally posted by Observer
IThe rates are reported per 100,000, so to predict how many hospitalizations you’d get from a 1000 person event, divide the numbers by 1000.
If you look at just the 2-dose columns, it adds up to an expected 1.6 hospitalization for a 1000 person event. If you look at the 3-dose column, it will shake out to 0.29.
Now, also figure in that about 2/3-3/4 of this data was the earlier Delta infections, and that Omicron is proving to be 3-4 times less virulent amongst the vaccinated, and the chance of hospitalization in an event this size falls still further.
So I looked at this and you've got the wrong n because it's out of 100,000 population not 100,000 COVID cases; also the rate per 1000 is 1/100th the rate per 100,000 not 1/1000th. In our BC scenario we are letting COVID run wild so we would have to look at the rate of hospitalization for 1000 people with COVID. BC's COVID tracker (https://experience.arcgis.com/exper...89e3cda29297ded) says it has had 293,000 total COVID cases with 251,000 resolved so that's around 42,000 active cases. It has 646 in hospital right now, 95 in ICU. So that's hospitalization rate of about 1.5%, ICU rate of 0.2%.
All taken together if we have an event and give 1000 people COVID then we'd expect 15 in hospital and 2 in the ICU. And that's using the current outbreak, not Delta numbers or whatever. That just seems like a crazy proposition.
(I really hope I got that math right.)
Last edited by oliviertoisel on 01-16-22 at 07:26PM
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| 01-16-22 07:39PM |
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Observer
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: River Falls, WI, USA
Posts: 445 |
Yes, you’re right that I goofed on the n being population rather than cases and that I used the wrong dividing factor.
Your later looking at the current BC numbers doesn’t fit the situation as I’d framed it though, The current 646 in hospital number doesn’t split this up between vaccinated and unvaccinated, I was saying that if you limit all attendance to the vaccinated, you won’t have many serious diseases and hospitalizations, and I still stand by that. You deduced 15 in hospital based on the total number. Vaccination efficacy against serious disease is reported to be around 90% still, leaving 10% serious, and if I can get the math right this time, using your 15 number, that’s 1.5.
Now these numbers are deriving from the entire population. If people who know they are at serious risk for serious COVID simply stay away from events like this, then that 1.5 number would sink further.
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| 01-16-22 07:44PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by Observer
Now these numbers are deriving from the entire population. If people who know they are at serious risk for serious COVID simply stay away from events like this, then that 1.5 number would sink further.
Yes but there were no spectators at this event and better yet would be all participants adhering to the protocols instead of some selfishly ignoring them.
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| 01-16-22 07:45PM |
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Observer
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: River Falls, WI, USA
Posts: 445 |
Or…even better, find a way to simply postpone all these key events by about 6 weeks. The Omicron surge should be largely over then. South Africa is coming up on week 8 of Omicron and their daily case numbers are continuing to fall precipitously. If they continue to fall at this pace, they’ll be back down to where they started in another two weeks.
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| 01-16-22 07:49PM |
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Observer
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: River Falls, WI, USA
Posts: 445 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Yes but there were no spectators at this event and better yet would be all participants adhering to the protocols instead of some selfishly ignoring them.
Ok, I didn’t know there weren’t any spectators. I was watching the Saskatchewan ones, as their coverage was better, and they had fans at theirs.
I do agree the players should’ve stuck to what they’d agreed to to play this.
Edit to add: I haven’t seen anyone here report similar problems in either the Sask or Alberta events. Were there any?
Last edited by Observer on 01-16-22 at 08:30PM
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| 01-16-22 08:29PM |
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BCcurler19
Knee-Slider
Registered: Jan 2022
Location:
Posts: 2 |
quote:
Originally posted by Observer
Or…even better, find a way to simply postpone all these key events by about 6 weeks. The Omicron surge should be largely over then. South Africa is coming up on week 8 of Omicron and their daily case numbers are continuing to fall precipitously. If they continue to fall at this pace, they’ll be back down to where they started in another two weeks.
There was no reason to host the men's event at the same time as the women's event. It could have, and should have, been held in February. At least one club said they would host it if Kamloops couldn't or wouldn't. That suggestion was ignored.
Before each draw each curler had their temperature taken. This is about the least effective way to detect covid. Ask Curl BC how many readings fell above or below the acceptable temperature range and then ask how many of these readings were dismissed with the explanation of toques, gloves, or minus 20 temperatures were the reason. While waiting for these inaccurate readings, curlers were held in the stairwell, gathered close to each other, to get a reading from a scanner that was not cleaned between uses.
There was more of a focus on teams not wearing the Curl BC patches, than enforcing the covid protocols.
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