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03-26-21 12:46AM
PSanders is offline Click Here to See the Profile for PSanders Find more posts by PSanders Add PSanders to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
PSanders
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2020
Location: Victoria, BC
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Mixed Doubles - Format?

I did a mini-poll of my friends, family and teammates on their thoughts on mixed doubles. Here is what I found:
Like:
1. can't hit rocks even when they're in the house
2. lose hammer if you blank
3. power play - its nice to see some play away from centre
4. love the angles and set up shots ( but think they wait too long sometimes to free up scoring area)
5. enjoy listening in to the strategy
6. some incredible shot making
7. love the fast pace.
8. enjoy watching the different faces rather than the same ones from the Brier/Scotties.
Don't like:
1. A little boring in that every end, even the power play ends, are the same. The only thing that changes are the execution of the shots. That being said, the shots for the most part have been good.
2. a bit boring when every end played in the middle - but skins is not boring and it is kind of the same so what is the difference?
2. seems rushed so maybe add another 30 seconds per end. Hate seeing people running all over the place - kind of bush
3. doesn't feel very "teamy" - not sure how to explain but a lot of individuals not super cohesive
4. these games seem more about the misses than the good shot
5. find the shots repetitive

Thoughts:
1. Maybe change the rock placement on the odd ends. This would at least change up some strategies and the more adaptable teams would be there at the end.
2. Noise of the crowds will make it more exciting.
3. Needs some innovative thinking to make it better for viewing..
4. Get away from the mindset of thinking about this as a curling game. It is not.
5.Move the ‘x’ rock to different positions to promote new strategies, new shot-making, and to save the integrity of the ice.

and lastly, there were a few people that expressed this thought:
1. I have been watching the mixed doubles curling but I'm afraid I record it and watch it mostly on fast forward so it doesn't seem quite as boring

What do you think, or have you already had this discussion in another thread?

Last edited by PSanders on 03-26-21 at 12:56AM

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03-26-21 10:41AM
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guido
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The one bad you didn’t mention.
Do not allow teams that had zero intention of playing mixed doubles into the championship.
Just because it’s a covid year.

__________________
It’s me!

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03-26-21 11:15AM
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Re: Mixed Doubles - Format?

quote:
Originally posted by PSanders
I did a mini-poll of my friends, family and teammates on their thoughts on mixed doubles. Here is what I found:
Like:
1. can't hit rocks even when they're in the house
2. lose hammer if you blank
3. power play - its nice to see some play away from centre
4. love the angles and set up shots ( but think they wait too long sometimes to free up scoring area)
5. enjoy listening in to the strategy
6. some incredible shot making
7. love the fast pace.
8. enjoy watching the different faces rather than the same ones from the Brier/Scotties.
Don't like:
1. A little boring in that every end, even the power play ends, are the same. The only thing that changes are the execution of the shots. That being said, the shots for the most part have been good.
2. a bit boring when every end played in the middle - but skins is not boring and it is kind of the same so what is the difference?
2. seems rushed so maybe add another 30 seconds per end. Hate seeing people running all over the place - kind of bush
3. doesn't feel very "teamy" - not sure how to explain but a lot of individuals not super cohesive
4. these games seem more about the misses than the good shot
5. find the shots repetitive

Thoughts:
1. Maybe change the rock placement on the odd ends. This would at least change up some strategies and the more adaptable teams would be there at the end.
2. Noise of the crowds will make it more exciting.
3. Needs some innovative thinking to make it better for viewing..
4. Get away from the mindset of thinking about this as a curling game. It is not.
5.Move the ‘x’ rock to different positions to promote new strategies, new shot-making, and to save the integrity of the ice.

and lastly, there were a few people that expressed this thought:
1. I have been watching the mixed doubles curling but I'm afraid I record it and watch it mostly on fast forward so it doesn't seem quite as boring

What do you think, or have you already had this discussion in another thread?



What an interesting and well articulated post. Such a nice change from so much on here. Here is my response to some of it. Just one thing I do not agree with and that it cannot be considered curling. It is still curling for me but not "traditional" curling and mixed doubles can be quite different but with some of the spectacular shots we saw still a part of the game. I really like the idea of changing starting rock placement on various ends to sometimes get away from the rock pile from top 4 to back 4.

Overall for me it is not boring at all. I would not want it to become the most popular form of curling and one that would dominate what we see on TV. But with some tweeks like you have suggested it could be even more interesting.

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03-26-21 04:32PM
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PSanders
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Thanks. Eventually, I'm going to send this along to Coach Bill (Tschirhart); maybe he can do an article for his blog.

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03-26-21 06:28PM
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Bulls Eye
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Mixed doubles to traditional 4 person curling is a lot like beach volleyball to traditional 6 person volleyball. It takes the same basic skills/equipment/rules but applies in a format with fewer players (especially specialist positions), in a faster, shorter and perhaps more marketable game. Both newer games were later add-ons to the the Olympics. In both cases, the smaller teams results a removal of a barrier to entry for the sport and helped the sport's growth. The fact the the same governing body covers both the traditional and newer variant mean that is the same sport but a different games within the sport. I guess similar arguments can be made for 3 on 3 basketball, arena football and rugby 7s.

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03-26-21 09:29PM
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Hitting Paint

 

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I’ve been thinking about what mike make it more interesting for me... and I think I’ve got it.

There’s already the dots on the ice where stones can be put. Maybe add a few more dots and let each team put their stone on the dot they choose. Or maybe give each team two stones to put down and throw four (or still five?). Let each team put two stones down on the order red-yellow-yellow-red or opposite. Like hammer team puts a stone down, then lead team puts two on two pre-defined spots then hammer gets one more?

I don’t know, I’m spitballing. I love the amounts of errors that come up and how strategy has to change on a dime because of a miss. More and unique strategies would be interesting and fun.

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03-26-21 10:27PM
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curlingclips
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People have been pondering about rule changes in mixed doubles since way back. Some of it has come true, some has not.

An interesting one that Kenny Edwards & Logan Gray (WCF commentators) mentioned back in 2014 is the presence of a neutral black handle stone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXEJH0pnVCc

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03-27-21 12:17AM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
People have been pondering about rule changes in mixed doubles since way back. Some of it has come true, some has not.

An interesting one that Kenny Edwards & Logan Gray (WCF commentators) mentioned back in 2014 is the presence of a neutral black handle stone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXEJH0pnVCc





Methinks you have WAY too much time on your hands, Review your last 20-30-40 posts. How many do not have either video links attached, or the quote " I may be wrong" or "Prove me wrong"

Say your opinion, or what you have to say without all the pretense "look at me" "look what obscure video I found".

Say what you have to say,
I don't get it.

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03-27-21 01:06AM
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curlingclips
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Having neutral black handle stones is cool, that's my opinion. It's not my original idea, it was discussed by WCF members in their congress, so I'm just giving reference to where the idea came from.

Sometimes I make statements that I'm not confident is true, so when that happens, I invite others to fact check me.

Contrary to what you're accusing, this isn't about me. I give credit to others when it's due. And I value truth over ego, so I don't mind to be proven wrong at times.

If I'm making this all about me, then I would try to claim credit for ideas that aren't my own, and I would retaliate whenever I'm proven wrong. I'm the opposite of that.

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03-27-21 09:16AM
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Maggie
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2020
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I like the links that you post, curling clips. I think you bring interest to the forum.

I hope you’ll continue to post the way you have been/ want to.

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03-27-21 10:17AM
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curlingclips
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I've actually spent some time researching the evolution of mixed doubles rules at WCF level. I'm not super familiar with the Canadian rules, other than yes, I can confirm that it's slightly different than the WCF rules.

I contributed to the wikipedia article, which has links to the PDFs for reference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubles_curling

Quick summary:

2008: Initial rules formulated. Stone in the house is just behind tee line. Teammate must be on opposite ends of the sheet during delivery (must have a "skip" holding the broom, basically). If you deliver a stone out of rotation (i.e. if you violate the 15 & 234 rule, i.e. if the male throws when it should've been the female or vice versa), they just try to undo the throw, and the stone is rethrown by the right person. (In practice, most of the time they just keep playing instead of actually rethrowing the stone).

2015: Major changes! Stone in the house is now back 4. Teammate can be anywhere, so you can have a sweeper in exchange to having someone hold the broom for you. Powerplay is introduced. If you deliver a stone out of rotation, that stone is burned (i.e. No rethrow! Very costly to make this mistake!).

2019: If you blank the end by tied measurement (as opposed to empty house), you basically get to keep the "hammer".

Here's a potentially confusing technicality. I say "hammer" in quotes because technically, the privilege in mixed doubles is not the advantage of throwing last rock, but the right to choose where the prepositioned stones go (sometimes called "option" or "decision"). In other words, in mixed doubles, you *CAN* give away the hammer and choose to throw the first stone of the end instead. In fact, you can give away the hammer and simultaneously use powerplay, if you wish. (Probably a really dumb move, strategically, but the rule does allow it!).

The general consensus nowadays is that there is no rational justification to ever decline the hammer, so it's simpler to conflate "option" with "hammer", but as far as the rule is concerned, those are two separate things.

Feel free to ask clarification and/or video clips demonstrating any of these situations.

Last edited by curlingclips on 03-27-21 at 10:58AM

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03-27-21 11:01AM
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MeaghanEdwards
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I too really enjoy your posts, curlingclips; and love your YouTube page, so many interesting finds there.

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03-31-21 12:26AM
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southerncurler
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Personally, from an officials perspective, I believe that the rules should state how long the team has to declare the positioned stone placement and power play decision. There is a touch of gamesmanship that is possible under the current rules that I don’t believe should be allowed.

I’d also love to see the implications of a rule change where the team that does not have the positioned stone option in the first end is guaranteed the option in the 8th end. This could allow for additional strategy if you win the LSD if LSD winner is give option of who has prepositioned stone in the 1st end.

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03-31-21 01:15AM
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curlingclips
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Here's a suggestion to expand on the current "3 rock no takeout" rule.

Make it "3 rock no takeout no rollout" rule. If shooter rolls out with first 3 throws, you reset everything.

It makes the corner tick powerplay defense harder. You can still push the corner guard into the ring or toward the centerline, but you can't also roll out your shooter at the same time.

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03-31-21 03:40AM
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fresca
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A lot of psychos posting here

Perhaps a diet change would help with the verbal diarrhea

One poster hud avoid the mushrooms

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03-31-21 12:36PM
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quote:
Originally posted by southerncurler
Personally, from an officials perspective, I believe that the rules should state how long the team has to declare the positioned stone placement and power play decision. There is a touch of gamesmanship that is possible under the current rules that I don’t believe should be allowed.



Can you expand on this a little more, please? I think I know what you’re getting at but not sure.

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03-31-21 02:54PM
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southerncurler
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quote:
Originally posted by Maggie


Can you expand on this a little more, please? I think I know what you’re getting at but not sure.



Essentially the WCF MD rules just say that the decision must be made “Prior to the start of every end” with no limit on “when” that decision could be made. In a competition with game timers I could make that decision with 2 seconds remaining to go in the between ends break and still be by rule allowed to do so. This could affect the other team as now their between end discussion about strategy may have to change and could in general just throw off the other team. I’d prefer the rule give a time limit in the between ends break after which the decision to play a power play can not be made.

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03-31-21 03:56PM
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You're right that I think this can be problematic! In fact, I think you can even affect the other team's clock by this gamesmanship!

There is an existing rule (C6(m)) that lets an umpire apply penalty to a team that delays the game unnecessarily, but it assumes the offending team is the delivering team. That doesn't apply in this case!

In mixed doubles, if you choose to keep the hammer (i.e. 100% of the time at elite level), the "offending" team (with regards to potential delay of game by taking extra time to decide on stone placement prior to the beginning of the end) is the non-delivering team.

The delivering team (i.e. the potential victim of this gamesmanship) has a 10-second window to deliver the first rock of the end before their clock starts to run.

The rule does add 30 seconds of break time for mixed doubles (C6(j)(i)) specifically because 2 stones have to be prepositioned, but (i) only if players are responsible for doing it themselves, and (ii) it doesn't say that the decision of placement has to be made quickly enough to guarantee that at least 30 seconds of break time remains!

This all seems convoluted and contrived, but on the other hand, WCF can also avoid all of it by simply declaring that the decision has to be made in, say 30 seconds after a team is granted the privilege of making the decision.

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04-01-21 10:22AM
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Maggie
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by southerncurler


Essentially the WCF MD rules just say that the decision must be made “Prior to the start of every end” with no limit on “when” that decision could be made. In a competition with game timers I could make that decision with 2 seconds remaining to go in the between ends break and still be by rule allowed to do so. This could affect the other team as now their between end discussion about strategy may have to change and could in general just throw off the other team. I’d prefer the rule give a time limit in the between ends break after which the decision to play a power play can not be made.



Thanks for elaborating. Makes sense. I agree with you.

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04-02-21 02:09PM
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hogged again
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
A lot of psychos posting here




LOL. This is the calmest chat board in the history of the internet. There are a couple get off my lawn yellers at clouds but they are harmless.

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Curling Scores

W: Humpty's Champions Cup
Calgary, AB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 9 -- Sat, Apr 17 -- 8:00am MT
Stern Final
Kovaleva (EE)
Fujisawa Final
Peterson (8)
M: Humpty's Champions Cup
Calgary, AB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 9 -- Sat, Apr 17 -- 8:00am MT
Gushue Final
De Cruz (8)
Jacobs Final
Dunstone (EE)
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