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03-22-21 02:56AM
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curlingclips
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quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
the rest are hand picked by CC

You people are just making stuff up, aren't you?

14 provincial/territories champions
14 CMDR teams from 2019-2020 season
7 CTRS teams from 2019-2020 season in National Team program

If you think that CMDR/CTRS/National Team program are flawed, then that's a separate debate we can have, but otherwise, there is no handpicking for this championship.

If you insist that there was handpicking, then prove it. Name a team and show how that team does not meet any of the above criteria.

https://www.curling.ca/files/2021/0...DR-Results.xlsx
https://www.curling.ca/team-canada/...ubles-rankings/
https://www.curling.ca/team-canada/...l-ctrs-results/
https://www.curling.ca/becoming-tea...l-team-program/

quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
Jim Cotter would also have been a decent partner to give Kaitlyn a chance to defend her Olympic gold. . . ! ! !


Letting Kaitlyn Lawes/Jim Cotter into the championship, now *THAT* would be handpicking.

Last edited by curlingclips on 03-22-21 at 03:41AM

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03-22-21 06:32AM
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Manitoba Legend
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
Appears Kaitlyn (Lawes) will be first casualty of the 35 team tourney!
She's playing with a virtually unknown Ontario nephew.
Couldn't round up a Top10 male player to set about defending her Olympic gold.
Wonder why Morris wouldn't (didn't) want to play with her???

Could have had McEwen (not that he's such a big winner) but McEwen usually plays with Wife Dawn, who's unavailable!

Jim Cotter would also have been a decent partner to give Kaitlyn a chance to defend her Olympic gold. . . ! ! !



Appears my premonition has come true. Kaitlyn & nephew pretty much fawns for the rest of the field. Didn't expect Bottcher & Bobby-Soxer to also be fawns but Brendan was just coming off the highest moment in his life while Sauder is simply not up to the task.
Moulding injuring his back is a real blow to Joanne Courtney, perhaps the fiercest female competitor on the planet - now having to be a spectator in the bubble. Perhaps she should request an exemption and bring in Jill Officer as her partner. Curling's greatest seconds playing "mixed" doubles. Don't think Curl Canada quite ready for that.

Val Sweeting still trying to find her sea legs in event. She really rocked Emma Miskew/Fry yesterday with a Fat 4 on 7 but couldn't complete the job in 8 - even though Emma nearly whiffed a semi-open hit. Emma got about 1/20th of the target stone. Emma & Fry aren't my favorites but there's no question they're two of the best shooters in this event, replete with advanced strategy and decent brushing.

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03-22-21 07:43AM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

You people are just making stuff up, aren't you?

14 provincial/territories champions
14 CMDR teams from 2019-2020 season
7 CTRS teams from 2019-2020 season in National Team program

If you think that CMDR/CTRS/National Team program are flawed, then that's a separate debate we can have, but otherwise, there is no handpicking for this championship.

If you insist that there was handpicking, then prove it. Name a team and show how that team does not meet any of the above criteria.
Letting Kaitlyn Lawes/Jim Cotter into the championship, now *THAT* would be handpicking.



You must forgive Manitoba Legend. Sometimes he just makes stupid statements to improve his numbers.

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03-22-21 09:33AM
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"Sometimes " ???

He thinks he is the reincarnation of jack martheson of wpg tribune 60 years ago - jack liked being controversial

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03-22-21 12:08PM
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We have wild cards without calling them wild cards but if they were going to hand out wild cards why not hand them out to mixed doubles teams who d8dnt qualify already like carey/Hodgson.

Last edited by misty1 on 03-22-21 at 12:32PM

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03-22-21 01:02PM
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Other prominent male curlers who haven't dallied into the mixed doubles:

- Old Glenny Howard
- Wayner Middaugh
- Scotty Howard
- The Brush Brothers
- Brad Jacobs
-

On the ladies side obviously the big missing is R. Homan. Thought Jill Officer might corral up a nephew to compete but her retirement must be serious (and final)
Other prominent women & men NOT playing MD = Robyn Silvernagle, Jan Betker, Coco Jones, Kimbo Kelly, Krista McCarville, Ashley Sippala, Lord William Lyburn, Dunstone, Moskowy, Gunner. Cotter, McCuish.

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03-22-21 01:05PM
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They should allow the option of placing 2 guards at the start of the end instead of 1 guard and 1 in the house.

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03-22-21 01:08PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
You people are just making stuff up, aren't you?


Look, I'm not Canadian, so I have no skin in this game. On my totally arbitrary list of "crap I care about in real life," You've got to go way way way way down before you get to "How Canada chooses participants and field size for its Mixed Doubles Curling National Championship."

BUT

When you decide to use 4 person team rankings to determine the last seven two person doubles participants, and then saying that team ratings only count if the parent organization is already currently giving the four person team money...

Well, I can't see how people would be too off the mark in saying that particular criterion... which (so far as I can see) has not been used before... is the equivalent of putting one's thumb on the scale to influence the participant pool.

That being said, from my American perch, it makes it much easier to watch on TV as I know a bunch more teams.

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03-22-21 01:30PM
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Letting in at least some amount (20%) of pairs of elite curlers from the small pool of funded athletes if their combined ratings meet the threshold is a sensible thing to do. To do otherwise, i.e. to forbid them from even getting in, is stupid.

If IOC announces tomorrow that mixed 4-person curling is now an Olympic sport for 2022, how would you devise the criteria for the trials? You'd let elite curlers from the small pool of funded athletes to form up teams and let the highest rated ones fight it out for the right to represent the country. It's a sensible thing to do.

quote:
Originally posted by misty1
why not hand them out to mixed doubles teams who didnt qualify already like carey/Hodgson.


Carey/Hodgson didn't play enough together in 2019-2020 to make it in via CMDR, and their combined CTRS is not high enough to make it in via CTRS. There is no handpicking allowed, so unfortunately they couldn't get in.

And I'm a big fan of Carey/Hodgson. One of my favorite curling moments is when they hugged it out after Jones/Nichols just killed their Olympic dream last time out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI0D-SUvBYg&t=8m

Last edited by curlingclips on 03-22-21 at 01:33PM

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03-22-21 01:31PM
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I think the question here is, since the 2 disciplines have nothing to do with each other why should 4 person team ranking mean anything. You would never award a 4 person team a wild card into the scotties or brier because the player was the top ranked mixed doubles player in the country

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03-22-21 01:36PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
Letting in at least some amount (20%) of pairs of elite curlers from the small pool of funded athletes if their combined ratings meet the threshold is a sensible thing to do. To do otherwise, i.e. to forbid them from even getting in, is stupid.

If IOC announces tomorrow that mixed 4-person curling is now an Olympic sport for 2022, how would you devise the criteria for the trials? You'd let elite curlers from the small pool of funded athletes to form up teams and let the highest rated ones fight it out for the right to represent the country. It's a sensible thing to do.



Carey/Hodgson didn't play enough together in 2019-2020 to make it in via CMDR, and their combined CTRS is not high enough to make it in via CTRS. There is no handpicking allowed, so unfortunately they couldn't get in.

And I'm a big fan of Carey/Hodgson. One of my favorite curling moments is when they hugged it out after Jones/Nichols just killed their Olympic dream last time out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI0D-SUvBYg



I'm aware they didn't qualify from the criteria but this is a national championship so allowing teams that have literally never curled together before to compete is ridiculous. In fact some 9f these people competing give mixed doubles little to know thought and yet, because they are top players on 4 person here they are.

I think.the problem here is there's just to many teams. What they should have done was 1 provincial rep and then , let's say the top 8 doubles pairs in the ranking get in for a field of 24.

And I disagree with you premise because again 4 person results have avsolutleu nothing to do with mixed doubles si, no, I don't see this as a good idea or making sense.

As for your other question I would take a look at the results of the recent Canadian mixed championships and invite the top performers from there. Better then just throwing a bunch of people that have never played together before at the last minute just because they do well in mens/womens play

Last edited by misty1 on 03-22-21 at 01:40PM

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03-22-21 01:42PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
I think the question here is, since the 2 disciplines have nothing to do with each other why should 4 person team ranking mean anything.

That's a fair question to debate, but regardless of which side of the fence you're in, it's not handpicking, which is my main point.

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03-22-21 01:57PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

That's a fair question to debate, but regardless of which side of the fence you're in, it's not handpicking, which is my main point.



I think the only reason that people are saying that is because there is the theory goung around that CC hand picked some of the pairs and put them together. Some of the pairs are a little bizarre like gushue/einarson or moulding/courtney and it's lead to that. Not saying I agree with this theory but I have seen it floated around and maybe that's what some on here mean. Then there's the whole John Morris situation.

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03-22-21 02:04PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
there is the theory going around that CC hand picked some of the pairs and put them together

Regardless of whether the theory is true or not, the combined CTRS still needs to be high enough to get in. So it's not handpicking either way.

quote:
Then there's the whole John Morris situation.

Danielle Schmiemann/Jason Ginter is ranked #18 in CMDR. This is probably why Morris/Schmiemann can get in via CMDR.

If Morris were to replace Homan with some other curler, they probably wouldn't get in. The replacement would have to have high enough rating in CMDR for the new pairing to qualify.

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03-22-21 02:05PM
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Well, I mean, that depends on how you feel about the arbitrary numbers of 14 CMDR teams and 7 CTRS teams. Because if it were 15/6 then you'd have... Pincott/Dunstone instead of Njegovan/Carruthers.

Or, there were always 32 teams before. So if it was the way it was every other year, it appears (based on my reading of the ranking spreadsheet) that the following teams were passed over

#5 Homan/Morris - Homan Declined, Morris playing with #6 Schmeimann/Morris
#15 Kitz/Stewart - Kitz already playing with #14 Kitz/Kleibrink
#16 Cottrill/Cottrill - Declined
#18 Schmeimann/Ginter - Schmeimann already playing with #6 Schmeimann/Morris
#19 Broderson/Kleibrink - Kleibrink already playing with #14 Kitz/Kleibrink
#21 Pincott/Dunstone
#23 Liscumb/Liscumb
#24 deGooijer/Springer
#25 Ferguson/Doering


In the way Curling Canada did the Brier and Scotties fields, they added wildcards, but they didn't eliminate anyone who would have otherwise qualified. That being said, by changing the rules, they have essentially handpicked the 7 CTRS teams over those four boldfaced teams.

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03-22-21 02:15PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

Regardless of whether the theory is true or not, the combined CTRS still needs to be high enough to get in. So it's not handpicking either way.


Danielle Schmiemann/Jason Ginter is ranked #18 in CMDR. This is probably why Morris/Schmiemann can get in via CMDR.

If Morris were to replace Homan with some other curler, they probably wouldn't get in. The replacement would have to have high enough rating in CMDR for the new pairing to qualify.



Again, not saying I agree with that theory. But it is going around

And if it is true thats not okay. As posted above there are some good teams that got left in the cold because the qualification rules were changed. I'd rather have seen them there

Last edited by misty1 on 03-22-21 at 02:20PM

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03-22-21 02:18PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cnpeters
how you feel about the arbitrary numbers

I would argue that 14+14+7 is not arbitrary.

It's the 14 base number for interprovincial representation in Canada, plus an equal amount for highest rated CMDR teams, plus half amount of combined CTRS teams.

14+15+6 would be arbitrary.

I will concede that maybe it should've been 14+14+2, i.e. reduce the number of CTRS teams.

But in any case, there is no handpicking.

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03-22-21 02:31PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
But in any case, there is no handpicking.


lol, well, at this point, I think it's probably best we agree to disagree and just enjoy the matches that are left!

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03-22-21 02:34PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
Again, not saying I agree with that theory. But it is going around


Lots of conspiracy theories going around. That's a bad thing.
quote:
I'd rather have seen (some other team(s)) there

So you'd rather they handpick teams instead of using CMDR and CTRS? That's nonsense, in my opinion. There should not be handpicking allowed.

You either have to win your province/territory, or have good enough rating to get in via CMDR or CTRS, period.

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03-22-21 02:56PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cnpeters

lol, well, at this point, I think it's probably best we agree to disagree and just enjoy the matches that are left!



I will concede that you have a good point, which I will rephrase here for clarity.

You're basically saying that, since it was 14+18 last time, if we're going to add a third criteria, it should be 14+18+X.

Meaning, if we're going to have 35 teams, maybe it should be 14+18+3 instead of 14+14+7.

That's a fair point!

Last edited by curlingclips on 03-22-21 at 03:11PM

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03-22-21 03:06PM
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That's a fair summation -

That being said.. this year.. who knows what's right and wrong? It's mixed doubles rankings as of 12-31-2020, but with so few events this year, who knows if it's fair or not? Much of the provincial/territorial representation won last year's qualifiers, not this year's - since lots of playdowns were cancelled.

Like I said - from my point of view, I'm much more familiar with the higher level 4 person teams than the higher level doubles teams whose players aren't at the Brier/Scotties.

So in that way, this way makes it more approachable for me, and the people in my life I rope into following this.

I'm kind of arguing to argue here, because discussing curling is more fun than not discussing curling.

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03-22-21 03:11PM
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Personally I'm okay with cutting off the bottom of CMDR to add more from the top of CTRS.

For what it's worth, the 4 extra CTRS teams added were:

Briane Meilleur/Mark Nichols
Kerri Einarson/Brad Gushue
Joanne Courtney/Darren Moulding
Selena Njegovan/Reid Carruthers

I'd say that's a good list of names to add. They're all champions, with the exception of Njegovan. And Courtney/Carruthers are world silver medalists in 2017, which I think justifies their inclusion, even if they're now playing with different partners.

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03-22-21 03:22PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips

Lots of conspiracy theories going around. That's a bad thing.

So you'd rather they handpick teams instead of using CMDR and CTRS? That's nonsense, in my opinion. There should not be handpicking allowed.

You either have to win your province/territory, or have good enough rating to get in via CMDR or CTRS, period.



No I'd rather they hadn't changed the rules . As was stated some of those teams would have quslified and been here if they hadn't changed things . That is why i said I'd rather have seen those teams here

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03-22-21 03:33PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
why not hand them out to mixed doubles teams who didnt qualify already like carey/Hodgson.

To be clear, Carey/Hodgson still wouldn't have qualified even if they went with original 2019 composition (14+18).

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03-22-21 04:28PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
Other prominent male curlers who haven't dallied into the mixed doubles:

- Old Glenny Howard
- Wayner Middaugh
- Scotty Howard
- The Brush Brothers
- Brad Jacobs
-

On the ladies side obviously the big missing is R. Homan. Thought Jill Officer might corral up a nephew to compete but her retirement must be serious (and final)
Other prominent women & men NOT playing MD = Robyn Silvernagle, Jan Betker, Coco Jones, Kimbo Kelly, Krista McCarville, Ashley Sippala, Lord William Lyburn, Dunstone, Moskowy, Gunner. Cotter, McCuish.



Dunstone does play but didn’t “qualify” this time

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