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03-10-16 03:50AM
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Re: Blanking curling to death

quote:
Originally posted by Marco2010
In what other sport do teams choose not to score? What is wrong with us? We need a blank end rule: Last rock advantage, use it or lose it. The team without last rock can't go in the reverse blank mode and automatically or easely force you to one because of the FGZ and the fact that you can't tick away a corner guard without remaining as some sort of guard yourself.

There does seem to be more blank ends in this Brier than has been the case in recent years.
Blank ends are less exciting to watch, yes (those of us who understand curling can see a blank coming sometimes as early as the first or second rock in an end), but it doesn't really take away from the enjoyment of the overall game.

If watching the games recorded, just fast forward through the blank ends.

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03-10-16 05:38AM
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The blank is a tactical weapon and one I think we'd be foolish to remove from the game. That said, limiting the number of blanks allowed per team / game is something I could be in favour of. I posted this in another thread a while back but it seems appropriate here:

quote:
Originally posted by jfletch2424
What if each team were allowed 2 blanks per game where they could still retain the hammer? It might force more play in the 1st end and would result in more strategic game planning (ie. non-hammer teams trying to force blanks early in the game). By the time the 8th and 9th ends rolled around, still having a blank or two in the bank could be advantageous.

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03-10-16 07:36AM
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Re: Re: Blanking curling to death

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
Blank ends are less exciting to watch, yes (those of us who understand curling can see a blank coming sometimes as early as the first or second rock in an end), but it doesn't really take away from the enjoyment of the overall game.

If watching the games recorded, just fast forward through the blank ends.



While there certainly are those blank ends that are easy to see coming, I'm amazed at how many ends are blanked when there are 6-8 rocks in the house, late in the end. These teams are getting so proficient at hitting, and these rocks/houses are so lively, that the blank is almost never out of the question.

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03-10-16 07:56AM
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Re: Re: Re: Blanking curling to death

quote:
Originally posted by draway8


While there certainly are those blank ends that are easy to see coming, I'm amazed at how many ends are blanked when there are 6-8 rocks in the house, late in the end. These teams are getting so proficient at hitting, and these rocks/houses are so lively, that the blank is almost never out of the question.


I agree. There have been times where there are a few rocks in the House, and you think 'Ok - finally, something's going to happen here'. Then 2 shots later, everything's gone and it ends up being another blank end.

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03-10-16 08:05AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Blanking curling to death

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

I agree. There have been times where there are a few rocks in the House, and you think 'Ok - finally, something's going to happen here'. Then 2 shots later, everything's gone and it ends up being another blank end.



I don't mind those type of blanks. Especially when it's your team making the raise double!! Those ends are quite exciting. It's the ends where the blank starts with the early stones that's boring to watch. I use those ends to mix another drink, flip to another game, or watch a few minutes of hockey.

GC

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03-10-16 11:05AM
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Are you *sure* that a game like this one (going on currently) would be any better?

http://www.curlingzone.com/game.php...owgameid=178513

scoring in all 10 ends...but never more than 1 in the end...2 steals, one by each team...

Yeah, okay, it's Juniors...but would that *really* be better?

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03-10-16 11:23AM
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I don't think the blanks are as big a problem as some seem to. To me it's only a small issue when teams play wide open the whole end and I think those are fairly rare.

It's been stated many times, but if you forced a team to give up the hammer after a blank the game would likely become less interesting because it removes motivation for the team without hammer to play aggressively.

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03-10-16 11:31AM
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski
I don't think the blanks are as big a problem as some seem to. To me it's only a small issue when teams play wide open the whole end and I think those are fairly rare.

It's been stated many times, but if you forced a team to give up the hammer after a blank the game would likely become less interesting because it removes motivation for the team without hammer to play aggressively.



Agreed. The game would turn into the team WITHOUT last rock trying to blank! Attempting to 2/3 bury on the button behind a guard to force the shooter to take out and roll out.

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03-10-16 01:42PM
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IMHO We might as well eliminate scoreless innings in baseball, and missed field goals in football. Boring. Score stays the same. Uck!

While we're at it, we could get rid of missed shots in hockey and soccer, and pars in golf. Boring. Nothing happening. Uck!

The hammer is THE main fact of strategy in curling. Hammer management is the meta-game, as it were. And the blank end is a powerful weapon in the meta-game -- in fact it could be called the essence of hammer management.

Last night I saw a really nice angle double-and-rollout for a blank at a crucial time. I don't think there was anything wrong with that. And it would be a shame if that part of the game disappeared, just to make sure the scoreboard keeps ticking over.

The blank end is an important part of the game. I think you need to understand it better, in order to appreciate it, and enjoy it. But please don't banish it.

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03-10-16 02:25PM
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I know I have the person/team correct, just not sure of the specific event, although I believe it was the 1985 World Junior Curling Championship.

In either the 10th end (of a tied game) or it was perhaps already in the extra end, Bob Ursel had to play a run-through takeout of an opposition guard onto an opposition shot rock that was covering the pin and fully buried behind the guard. There was simply no way that Ursel could get shot rock with any kind of draw or tap and the only shot was to play the run-through double and hope that they didn't dead nut the raised opposition guard onto shot rock. In essence, the only successful shot for Ursel was to blank the end, anything short of that meant that they lost the game.

When the shot was made, should Ursel's team have been denied the tactical advantage of shot rock in the extra (or extra, extra) end?

The team without hammer should not gain the advantage of getting hammer if they are not successful in making the other team score.

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03-10-16 03:06PM
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Re: Blanking curling to death

quote:
Originally posted by Marco2010
In what other sport do teams choose not to score? What is wrong with us? We need a blank end rule: Last rock advantage, use it or lose it. The team without last rock can't go in the reverse blank mode and automatically or easely force you to one because of the FGZ and the fact that you can't tick away a corner guard without remaining as some sort of guard yourself.


This debate has been brought up here in dozens of threads. Logically think through what you would do with, and without hammer, and play out the game. I think the rule you're proposing would bring in games with one point being exchanged each end. That's not anymore exciting than blanking.

It's easy to just throw out blanket statements without thinking them through. They should make the dollar worth a million dollars, and then everyone will be millionaires. Tuition should be free for everybody. They should legalize pot and tax it by 1,000%. If you don't score with hammer you lose it. All are asinine statements.

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03-10-16 04:31PM
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Curling can't become stagnant. I don't want to see our sport become "boring". However I am of the same opinion as some of the other posters in that a lot of the blanks I've seen in the Brier are the result of some amazing raise doubles, triple takeouts etc. In my mind that isn't boring. It's amazing. I think in SK vs. NO there was one end where there were 7 rocks in the house and after Jacobs and Laycock each threw there were none. Wow!

I hate rule changes. I've expressed that opinion before. 5 rock rule in the Grand Slams was supposed to allow teams to come from behind. That's fine, it has maybe helped some. I imagine that will continue and probably end up being adopted across the board at some point. It's just how many rules are we going to change? You make a rule, teams adapt to it, then make a rule again? 6 rock FGZ? Can't even touch the first 4 rocks thrown if they're outside the house? The teams are so good they can run a rock back for a triple to setup a blank or make a double peal on corner guards. Should they be punished for that? I don't really think so.

This isn't even a rule change, it's a format change. It's basically going from regular curling to skins format. It completely rewrites everything and isn't something to be taken lightly. There are still lots of blanks in the skins format. It just means you might as well take your one because your going to lose the hammer anyways.

Part of the reason these amazing shots are possible is because of the ice conditions (I had said in the past that it was because the rocks are more lively and got corrected by people saying that the rocks are the same as any other rocks). The speed of the ice is awesome, I'd love to play on it. However it makes some of these triple takeouts possible because even though that flying rock has hit two already all it has to do is blow on the third and it flies out of the house like its on fire.

I think there are other changes that can be made without changing the "format" of the game. I don't know what. Double pebble the house? Slow the speed down over the whole sheet a hair? Slightly slower rocks? Some people are probably rolling their eyes at me now. Our sport is often compared to golf. Does golf change rules every 5 minutes? Do they say "man these guys are just so good I get tired of seeing birdies I want to see some bogies, lets make it illegal to hit the green with their first shot". Sounds a little ridiculous doesn't it. Do you want to play with the hammer rule at the club level? I find the game pretty difficult as it is. Do you want to see a different set of rules at the elite level? Part of the beauty of our sport is that everyone plays by the same rules.

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03-10-16 05:11PM
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quote:
Originally posted by propane_cooker
Our sport is often compared to golf. Does golf change rules every 5 minutes?


Really bad choice for your argument because, like almost any game ever since the beginning of time, golf does change formats, course layouts and even rules to adapt to the trends of the sport.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...st-the-opposite

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/a...overning-bodies

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03-10-16 05:15PM
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Blank ends are an increasing issue because players in Mens can throw the rock 100 MPH and do it accurately.Not a problem in Wonam's Seniors etc.

Make the game like tennis ....you have last rock every second end just as you serve in tennis every second game.If your serve in tennis is broken you don't get to serve again!!

Does three things
1.Makes it easier to come back in a game where trailing. Down 4-1 without hammer. Steal one and it's 4-2 and now you have last rock.
2.Makes Stealing more important than ever.
3.Eliminates all intentional Blank ends.

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03-10-16 05:19PM
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Re: Re: Blanking curling to death

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy


This debate has been brought up here in dozens of threads. Logically think through what you would do with, and without hammer, and play out the game. I think the rule you're proposing would bring in games with one point being exchanged each end. That's not anymore exciting than blanking.

It's easy to just throw out blanket statements without thinking them through. They should make the dollar worth a million dollars, and then everyone will be millionaires. Tuition should be free for everybody. They should legalize pot and tax it by 1,000%. If you don't score with hammer you lose it. All are asinine statements.



Yeah. This topic has been done to death. Including an identical thread two weeks or so back.

Good post though Squiggsy. If you want to see more asinine comments just review the idiocy on the burnt rock thread...

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03-10-16 06:38PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Curl401

Does three things
1.Makes it easier to come back in a game where trailing. Down 4-1 without hammer. Steal one and it's 4-2 and now you have last rock.



Unless of course the other team wins the toss/LSD and elects to take the hammer in the even ends, in which case you had the hammer in the 9th and have no chance because you're down 2 without.

Last rock in the last end is too much of an advantage to be given like that.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a rule where in the 9th and 10th ends, the team that is behind automatically gets the hammer. Play with blank rules through the 8th...but that would give the team behind a chance to get back in it.

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03-10-16 07:56PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


Unless of course the other team wins the toss/LSD and elects to take the hammer in the even ends, in which case you had the hammer in the 9th and have no chance because you're down 2 without.

Last rock in the last end is too much of an advantage to be given like that.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a rule where in the 9th and 10th ends, the team that is behind automatically gets the hammer. Play with blank rules through the 8th...but that would give the team behind a chance to get back in it.



Last rock might not be an advantage in the 10th because if you have the hammer in the odd ends you might score enough with the hammer 5 times that the opposition is shaking hands after 9 ends and the 10th end does not get played

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03-11-16 01:23AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Par
IMHO We might as well eliminate scoreless innings in baseball, and missed field goals in football. Boring. Score stays the same. Uck!

While we're at it, we could get rid of missed shots in hockey and soccer, and pars in golf. Boring. Nothing happening. Uck!


^ Huh?
In all of the examples you give, there is always the attempt to score.
In curling, blanking an end is not only very deliberately done, but is sometimes decided upon before the end even begins.

This makes your comparisons completely irrelevant.

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Last edited by On The Nose on 03-11-16 at 02:46AM

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03-11-16 06:30AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Personally, I'd prefer to see a rule where in the 9th and 10th ends, the team that is behind automatically gets the hammer. Play with blank rules through the 8th...but that would give the team behind a chance to get back in it.


Under this rule, I would never want the lead. I would lose the draw shot on purpose. If I gave up 2 in the 1st I would play to only get 1 in the 2nd. As long as I kept within 4 I'd have a great chance of winning because I know that I can work it so that I'll have hammer in 8, 9 and 10.

I just can't see the logic behind any rule that would make it good strategy to not be winning.

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03-11-16 11:02AM
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
In all of the examples you give, there is always the attempt to score.
In curling, blanking an end is not only very deliberately done, but is sometimes decided upon before the end even begins.

This makes your comparisons completely irrelevant.



Not at all! In every sport I mentioned except golf, we have one team trying to score, while the other team tries to prevent them from scoring.

In baseball, the team playing defense is always trying to pitch a scoreless half-inning. And nobody says, "They shouldn't be able to do that because it's boring."

IMO it's the same in curling. Even if the team with the hammer is trying to blank the end, their opponents are trying to steal or force. So there's always tension -- or at least there should be.

And that, to me, is what makes the tactical side of the game interesting. It's the clash of plans -- not simply the number of rocks in play or the number of points on the board.

Of course you are entirely welcome to a different opinion.

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03-11-16 11:19AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Par


In baseball, the team playing defense is always trying to pitch a scoreless half-inning. And nobody says, "They shouldn't be able to do that because it's boring."

IMO it's the same in curling. Even if the team with the hammer is trying to blank the end, their opponents are trying to steal or force. So there's always tension -- or at least there should be.

Yeah, not the same as baseball. You would never see a player decline to score a run as a strategy. In fact, as I mentioned in another thread, when the balance between offence and defense tipped too far in favour of pitchers, (making the game boring..hello curling are you listening?) they lowered the height of the mound to correct the balance back towards offense.

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03-11-16 11:24AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jfletch2424
The blank is a tactical weapon and one I think we'd be foolish to remove from the game. That said, limiting the number of blanks allowed per team / game is something I could be in favour of. I posted this in another thread a while back but it seems appropriate here:




I don't mind blanks. I think they're an important element of the game/strategy. But I don't like teams blanking 5 ends in row like we're seeing this morning. What if you had to give up hammer if you blanked two consecutive ends? So you could blank once, but if you did it a second time in a row, you gave up hammer?

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03-11-16 11:29AM
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To everyone throwing out ideas without much thinking. You can't just think about what the rules would do to the team WITH hammer, you also have to consider the effect to strategy to teams WITHOUT hammer. If you knew a team couldn't blank think how open the team WITHOUT hammer would play.

If you were to limit teams and say they couldn't blank 2 ends in a row the game would look the same, with just the other team keeping things open.

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03-11-16 11:37AM
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It's a simple fix--don't score you lose hammer. Thats's if you're interested in making the game watchable. In it's current form --great ice, rediculously live rocks, directional sweeping---culring will not ever gain traction to a wider audience.

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03-11-16 12:28PM
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Team who starts game with hammer begins the game down 1-0. I've always said this will never fly (no one wants to give free points) but mathematically it makes some sense.

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