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| 03-07-23 09:32PM |
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On The Nose
Drawmaster
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608 |
For the people commenting about the McEwen and Kevin Koe teams...
Both McEwen and Koe have the same problem - while they obviously know and understand curling strategy, they are not assertive enough. Teammates have been able to recognize their 'wishy-washiness', and they speak up with their own thoughts and opinions on strategy.
In the past few years, there was obviously no clear leader on the McEwen/Carruthers teams - and that was their downfall. They may be good friends, but the lack of some degree of hierarchy between them (which could well have been due to their friendship and respect for one another) often sunk them.
Now, McEwen is still not coming through as a leader on his current team.
He worked best with BJ et al a few years ago.
With Kevin Koe, it's similar. He is frustratingly indecisive. This makes for a weak leader - and, as I said, teammates recognize this. You don't want your supposed leader to be wishy-washy when you're going into battle. But Koe is exactly that - and that's why his teams run down the time clock so much. He seems incapable of saying "This is what we're doing - period."
He has the curling knowledge, and he's a great 4th rock thrower - so you want him as the Skip. But he doesn't seem to have the self confidence to be a strong leader - and so his effectiveness as a Skip is compromised.
The team that is surprising me in terms of chemistry is the Bottcher team. Bottcher's approach/attitude has been questioned in the past with the whole Moulding episode, and when Hebert and Gallant came in, I was expecting severe conflict, as both Benny and Brett are guys who have to have their say with regards to strategy. And, according to the Moulding situation, Bottcher is a 'my way or the highway' type of guy.
I can only assume that Marc Kennedy's role in the team is very significant, acting as a 'mediator' of sorts between the front end and Bottcher, all of whom historically insist on having a strong input.
__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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| 03-07-23 11:30PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
I can only assume that Marc Kennedy's role in the team is very significant
I honestly believe Marc Kennedy is the best Canadian curler at the moment.
If we can clone a curler and create a team of 4 identical Marc Kennedys, that team could win the Brier and even the World Men's. I wouldn't say that about any other Canadian curler.
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| 03-08-23 07:08AM |
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The Waco Kid
Knee-Slider
Registered: Mar 2021
Location:
Posts: 6 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
Send the Brier/Scotties winners to represent Canada and wear the Maple Leaf at Pan-Continental in the fall.
The Pan-Continental is a very important event for Canada, so this is a huge honor (some would say burden) for whichever team wins. Calendar gives the teams months to prepare.
Some people say this is too risky, but this is the proof in pudding moment for Canada in my opinion. Canada has depth, so it should be able to have 2 different teams to 2 different events.
If winners of Scotties/Brier are good enough to go to Worlds to earn Olympic points, then they should be good enough to go to Pan-Continental to qualify Canada at Worlds in the first place.
Imagine an alternate reality where a grassroot provincial team like Krista McCarville won 2022 Scotties but instead of going to 2022 World Women's they went to 2022 Pan-Continental to qualify Canada to 2023 World Women's. I think we all agree that McCarville is more than capable of that task, and everyone in Canada would be cheering for them.
I had no idea what the Pan Continental was so I may be biased in thinking it would not be a useful alternative.
The risk is that changes to the Brier and the declining interest based on it moving more and more away from its traditional roots would be reflected in a declining interest in curling overall and in the Slam events and the money available for the players to be "pros".
How about instead of wildcard teams they add a 2nd provincial rep based on past provincial showings and the 2nd team could be chosen through a combo of WCT points and their placement at provincials. Visually we would see teams in provincial colours. I would combine the territories into one team and bring the number back to 16.
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| 03-08-23 08:52AM |
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lixit74
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 38 |
So, I was talking at the dinner able last night about the brier and my wife wants to see Chris Cutter at play a game against Alexander "The Juggernaut" Yount. With the Brier attendance dwindling every year and the 100 anniversary coming (I think) in 2027, maybe a celebrity game is what's needed to inject some needed fun / buzz into this event.
Something needs to be done to get more people in the stands.
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| 03-08-23 10:47AM |
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lixit74
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 38 |
People want to see upsets I think. This is one of the reasons I believe the Scotties is so well watched. There are multiple upsets, tiebreakers & drama.
Looking at last night's and this morning's draws @ the brier & I don't see any of that. It looks like Yukon is giving Botch a run for his money right now, but of the 8x games over the 2 draws, the only game of consequence where there wasn't a clear favorite was Dunstone vs. Caruthers. You knew who was going to win before the games started... Where's the drama in that.
The Brier teams should be the top 10-12 ranked teams in the country. Maybe that will generate the drama needed to get more people in the stands...
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| 03-08-23 11:51AM |
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Bmalky
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2019
Location: Brantford, ON
Posts: 49 |
Watching NO/Sask game this morning. Cathy G.at end of 6 th end. "Sask still have time. Hold to 1 take 2 hold to 1 take two." Score was 6 - 3 NO at the time. Do the math!
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| 03-08-23 12:23PM |
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nelski
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Twin Snowbanks
Posts: 2068 |
I don't have video. Did Gautier run out of time in the extra end against Asselin? EDIT: Nevermind. I caught the clip on Twitter. Tough sweep for the win for Asselin. I just wondered because CurlingCanada put an X in the linescore at the end and Gautier's time was at zero.
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Lots of major youth (<21) events. Nice for Murdoch... and us :-D.
Last edited by nelski on 03-08-23 at 12:49PM
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| 03-08-23 01:57PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by The Waco Kid
I had no idea what the Pan Continental was
It's time for people to wake up and realize how important the Pan Continental is now and will be in the future. We're in a new chapter of international curling scene.
I've argued with people who said that Pan Continental is so important, that only the absolute best team should ever represent Canada... but whoever wins Scotties/Brier should definitely go to Worlds even if it's somehow a Cinderella upset winner.
That's completely backwards in my opinion. It should be the other way around: Scotties/Brier winners go to Pan Continental, and only the absolute best should go to Worlds, just like only the absolute best should go to Olympics.
If that proposition is too scary for Canada, then keep in mind that there is plenty of time between Scotties/Brier and Pan Continental in the fall, so if a Cinderella somehow won, they can use that extra time for preparation and vetting, and maybe even consider substitution if somehow a truly trash team won the Scotties/Brier.
In any case, if you think a truly trash team winning Scotties/Brier and going to Pan Continental is scary, then realize that a truly trash team winning Scotties/Brier today do go to Worlds, which frankly I think is even scarier.
Put it another way: if you trust that the Scotties/Brier playdown process will produce good enough teams to go to Worlds, then surely that exact same process can produce good enough teams to go to Pan Continental, where I think we can all agree that both the level of competition and the bar for success are lower.
Last edited by curlingclips on 03-08-23 at 02:10PM
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| 03-08-23 01:59PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
Manuel absolutely has to win this afternoon to keep up with Horgan. Otherwise that group gets a lot less interesting
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| 03-08-23 02:12PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote:
Originally posted by lixit74
People want to see upsets I think. This is one of the reasons I believe the Scotties is so well watched. There are multiple upsets, tiebreakers & drama.
Looking at last night's and this morning's draws @ the brier & I don't see any of that. It looks like Yukon is giving Botch a run for his money right now, but of the 8x games over the 2 draws, the only game of consequence where there wasn't a clear favorite was Dunstone vs. Caruthers. You knew who was going to win before the games started... Where's the drama in that.
The Brier teams should be the top 10-12 ranked teams in the country. Maybe that will generate the drama needed to get more people in the stands...
I agree. I eill bring up that saying. You watch the scotties fir the drama and upsets . You watch the brier for the quality. It's an insulting phrase but I also think it's true.
I prefer the scotties . Look at the brier and yet again, aside from the pei win over ontario and the yukon over bc there have been no upsets. It's all to predictable.
Look at the standings and everyone we thought would be at the top is. Even the teams battling for 3rd aren't really a surprise. We all know how good Quebec and Northern ontario can be. It's a shame BC let the Yukon game get away because I truly believe they could have been an unexpected story and team to advance.
Nova Scotia still in touch in group A but in that group there's a scenario where one loss, maybe even 2 is the cutoff so unless manuel wins this afternoon that group gets a lot less interesting. However I suspect Carruthers comes put guns blazing and we will see that 2 game rift.
Fingers crossed fir manuel though
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| 03-08-23 02:13PM |
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oliviertoisel
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2021
Location:
Posts: 587 |
quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
The team that is surprising me in terms of chemistry is the Bottcher team. Bottcher's approach/attitude has been questioned in the past with the whole Moulding episode, and when Hebert and Gallant came in, I was expecting severe conflict, as both Benny and Brett are guys who have to have their say with regards to strategy. And, according to the Moulding situation, Bottcher is a 'my way or the highway' type of guy.
Gallant has a very strong mind but he also played with Gushue for a decade. Gushue is surely as firm and strong minded as Bottcher, to the point I expect a lot of his professionalism and methods are being adapted by Bottcher through Gallant. And going back to the early years there was an easy mutual chemistry between Moulding and Bottcher that really worked. It fell apart but there's no indication Bottcher is any kind of outlier. I think the team makes sense and Kennedy is important but so is everyone else. The bigger risk is Hebert and he survived on multiple teams with John Morris.
quote:
Originally posted by curlingclips
In any case, if you think a truly trash team winning Scotties/Brier and going to Pan Continental is scary, then realize that a truly trash team winning Scotties/Brier today do go to Worlds, which frankly I think is even scarier.
My issue is I don't even understand what you're doing to differentiate these teams. No "trash" team has ever won these events. The only scenario where a "trash" team (which I don't even recognize as a term) goes to a major event is if you create a new event just for "trash" teams. Which is what you're proposing to do.
I propose we just send the top ranked CTRS team to the Pan-Continental every year.
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| 03-08-23 02:18PM |
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lixit74
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 38 |
Agreed. NS has 2 huge games. First against Carruthers & then against NOnt... They need to win both likely to end with a chance @ a playoff spot.
NOnt is in roughly the same spot. They play NS and MB. They need to win 1 of the 2 games to get a spot locked up...
Good luck to both teams!
The game starting now should be pretty entertaining.
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| 03-08-23 02:21PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
No "trash" team has ever won these events. The only scenario where a "trash" team (which I don't even recognize as a term) goes to a major event is if you create a new event just for "trash" teams. Which is what you're proposing to do.
I'm not proposing creating a new event for "trash" teams (which I agree is a made-up term). It can be the exact same Scotties/Brier the way it is now, but winners go to Pan Continental instead of Worlds.
You're right that historically, the Scotties/Brier playdown process has shown that it consistently produce good enough teams to go to Worlds. Thus, my argument is that the exact same process will therefore also produce good enough teams to go to Pan Continental, so there's no reason to reject this proposal based on fear of the worst case scenario.
Yes, the worst case scenario of Canada failing to qualify to Worlds is a disaster, but I would argue that it's not realistic at least for the next few years.
Maybe in 10 years if somehow the Asian countries rise up dramatically in curling, we may have to revise this strategy, but I refuse to concede that Canada will go downhill so badly in the next 10 years that it will be so easily surpassed by other countries.
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| 03-08-23 02:37PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel
I propose we just send the top ranked CTRS team to the Pan-Continental every year.
That would be a viable option, but it doesn't do much to help grow traditional grassroot curling.
With my proposal, I believe the elite top-ranked CTRS teams (e.g. Team Homan) should go to World Trials, and everyone else should go through the playdown process for Scotties/Brier, winners go to Pan Continental. I think that would do wonder for the growth of grassroot women's teams in Ontario, for example, who now have a chance to go to Scotties and even winning it.
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| 03-08-23 03:00PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
Here's a bit more of how my proposal would look like on calendar.
First, key idea: Worlds Trial events overlap with the long drawn out Scotties/Brier national playdown process. If you have to qualify to get in, you have to choose one path or the other.
Of course, we have Team Canada returning champion from previous season who is already qualified for Scotties/Brier. The way things are right now, Team Canada is twiddling their thumbs doing mostly nothing during playdown season. With my proposal, Team Canada will get the invite to the Worlds Trial events.
So, yes, you can still get to Worlds by winning Scotties/Brier. It's not direct, and not in the same season, but it's doable.
Say you win 2030 Scotties, you then play in 2030 Pan Continental, qualifying Canada for 2031 Worlds. Then instead of twiddling your thumbs during 2031 playdown season, you play in 2031 Worlds Trial, and if you win that you'll get to play in 2031 Worlds. In any case, you'll get to play in 2031 Scotties as Team Canada.
Last edited by curlingclips on 03-08-23 at 03:14PM
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| 03-08-23 04:21PM |
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lixit74
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 38 |
Worlds are late March - end of season
Pan Cont. are in late October. - start of season.
I agree that the winner of the pan champ should go to worlds, but now you have the same issue we have in Juniors.
You'd need to win the CDN Championships then wait until the next season to try and get to worlds... This approach is failing with the Cdn juniors right now...
I say Cdn Championships, but move to Feb for both men's and Women's to give them more prep time.
Winner goes to Worlds in March. Then the same team goes to the Pan-cont. championships the following October. They earned team Canada status by winning the previous season. Give them an extra competition as Canada & have Curl Canada give them a monetary incentive to win. I don't like sending a lower ranked team to give them experience at a world stage... Send your best teams to get the best results.
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| 03-08-23 05:13PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by lixit74
I agree that the winner of the pan champ should go to worlds
I never said that. I said there's a path to do that, but it's not direct.
In fact I would go a step further and say that a deep curling nation like Canada should make an effort to send different teams to Pan Continental and Worlds. Now, if a Supreme Curling Being emerges and keeps winning everything, then yeah they'll get to go to Pan Continental, Worlds, and maybe even Olympics in the same season, but by no means should that be the goal of the system to send one team when they can send multiple.
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| 03-08-23 05:14PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
Darn. Manuel lost. Next to impossible for him to qualify now. I really like this team though. Real potential there if they stick together
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| 03-08-23 06:44PM |
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curlingclips
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Oct 2019
Location:
Posts: 1523 |
quote:
Originally posted by lixit74
They earned team Canada status by winning the previous season.
I disagree 100%. For a major curling nation such as Canada, every opportunity to wear the Maple Leaf that is known ahead of time should be earned on the ice every single time with a proper championship.
If WCF creates a brand new annual event that adds one more opportunity to wear the Maple Leaf every year, are you still going to send the same Team Canada again?
Last edited by curlingclips on 03-08-23 at 07:09PM
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| 03-08-23 08:03PM |
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alex
Swing Artist
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Quesnel
Posts: 420 |
Kind of strange NL is so weak except for Gushue. If he isn't team Canada he can win so easily if he can satisfy residency. rules.
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| 03-08-23 09:21PM |
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decade
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 1962 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alex
Kind of strange NL is so weak except for Gushue. If he isn't team Canada he can win so easily if he can satisfy residency. rules. [/QUOTE Not strange. NL has a population of slightly more than 1/2 million. NS pop is closer to 1 million and how many Brier worthy teams have they produced ?
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| 03-08-23 09:30PM |
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MeaghanEdwards
Drawmaster
Registered: Aug 2018
Location:
Posts: 699 |
Someone mentioned there haven't been much in the way of upset wins; there's the historic win of of Nunavut's over NL.
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| 03-08-23 09:47PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
Kevin himself is struggling badly tonight. They have him at 75 . I'd put him down more in the 60s . He's let manitoba off the hook so many times
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| 03-09-23 06:19PM |
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990 |
quote:
Originally posted by MeaghanEdwards
Someone mentioned there haven't been much in the way of upset wins; there's the historic win of of Nunavut's over NL.
In NL defense, they were missing their vice and had their coach replacing him. He was stuck coming back from the Canada Games
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| 03-09-23 07:00PM |
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668 |
I wonder if Carruthers is rethinking his decision to part ways with Gunner before the Brier now he’s out of the playoffs!
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Well Behaved Women Don't Make History.
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