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12-05-21 10:52PM
Maggie is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Maggie Find more posts by Maggie Add Maggie to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Maggie
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quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel


If it's not working then keeping him around and spending the rest of the season losing is not a good move imho. The comments about Brendan purposely doing this to keep him from playing in front of his son is...extreme. Had Moulding left last year he wouldn't have done this either.

The only dirty here was the poorly chosen PR 101 press release Friday. I actually believe it was stupidity and ignorance because obviously it would trigger Moulding to speak out. Otherwise nothing here is untoward. Heck, people around here had Moulding near the top of the cut list just not the when.



I agree with this. Darren said during the podcast that he was expecting to be cut every time they went to an event for the last three years or so. I found that a strange thing to say after he originally indictated that he was blindsided. If as he says he tried to quit the team in May then he must have known that would mean he wouldn’t play in Lethbridge. The more he talked the more he muddied the waters.

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12-05-21 11:02PM
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curlingclips
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quote:
Originally posted by Deliverer
Since a Trial Event, such as the US Mixed Doubles Trial Qualificiation Event # 2, could, in theory, ultimately produce the winner of the W.M.D.C.C., why would it not be in the best interest of the WCF to sanction that Trial Event?

You can use this same faulty logic for pretty much anything. You can say, for example, that the winner of Canadian Curling Trial could, in theory, ultimately produce the winner of the Beijing Olympics, so why would it not be in the best interest of WCF to sanction Canadian Curling Trial?

You can say, for example, since the winner of the Manitoba Scotties could, in theory, produce the winner of Canadian Women's Championship, which could then, in theory, ultimately produce the winner of World Women's Championship, is it not in the best interest of WCF to sanction the Manitoba Scotties?

Do you see the fault in your logic?

Remember when Scotties and Brier were using 3-rock FGZ while WCF uses 4-rock FGZ? What does that mean to you?

WCF does NOT sanction national championships and trials of its member associations. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand.

If you actually want to know which championships are actually sanctioned by WCF, their official record provides a good glimpse.

https://results.worldcurling.org/Championship/

There are some minor errors and omissions in this data set, but it provides a reasonably accurate big picture overview of what WCF sanctions.

Specifically with regards to Jamie Sinclair, as far as WCF is concerned, her last appearance was at 2019 World Women's.

https://results.worldcurling.org/Person/Details/8716

Last edited by curlingclips on 12-06-21 at 12:17AM

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12-05-21 11:30PM
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oscar
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The only thing newsworthy here is the fact that Moulding is not gonna get wat he deserved, a trip to the brier as team CANADA, We all know covid has taken its toll! There is no reason that this move could not have taken place after the brier. that being said, this move will also effect another 2 teams for sure, we all know the brier is not wat it used to be and the olympics have completely ruined curling, maybe this is just one more example. I am an interested spectator of the sport for many years, but the the game has changed and not for the better! for wat it is worth I feel Moulding stepped in at a time when Botcher was a pup and helped him to glory (and wat a run, are you kiddin me? 4 brier finals in a row I beleive?) But the skipper with the name moves on cause he thinks he can do better! Good luck to both, you have accomplished more together in a short period of time than alot of great players dreamed of in a career! In the beginning I was unsure of this team, Moulding really stepped up to the plate and not only became a great 3rd but a great roll model for the game, a game that needs much more of that! These players are not movie stars or rock stars making millions upon millions of dollars, sometimes with a little success, the monster takes over!

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12-06-21 12:54AM
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Hack Weight
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Like others have said, the main lesson for teams/people is to be honest when releasing a player. The dishonest “press release” on Friday night was the issue. Making a change to a team is otherwise fine, though of course never an easy thing.

Moulding danced around it in the CBC interview, but it appears the main tension/issue was with how the team was run off the ice, and specifically the financials.

Which begs a very interesting question about how these elite curling teams structure things. I imagine each team is slightly different. The skip takes the biggest percentage of winnings and advertising revenue? The Old Bear was known to get a healthy share. And for good reason, the skip likely deserves that (face of the team, best (or at least most important) player, generally the most marketable, etc).

My main takeaway from all this is that it should become more and more common for teams to have contracts with each other spelling out how expenses are paid, prize and funding money is split, sponsorships are handled, disclosure of all financial info, expense, how decisions are made (does skip have majority say or is it a team decision), what happens when the team breaks up, etc.

These elite teams are bringing in six figures of revenue (what’s the best guess on say Gushue’s yearly sponsorship revenue - $200,000 - $500,000?), so without some formal agreement between all parties, it’s not surprising that tensions like what appears to have happened with team Bottcher arise.

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12-06-21 01:32AM
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oscar
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in my opinion, botcher is caught, knows he is a great skip, knows he don't have the team, where do you go? moulding would have been the scapegoat from day 1 as he said i was in fear of being cut every weekend, but 4 brier finals? i think you earned your keep!. cutthroat but gonna happen, love everything Moulding said, spade is a spade. to Botcher, careful wat you wish for. you may have more problems than Moulding, have never heard martins name being up there in the top 10! life is a ride, and curling is just a Hyundai!!

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12-06-21 09:02AM
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oliviertoisel
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quote:
Originally posted by oscar
moulding for gushue's alternate?


Definitely not or at least it would shock me. Gushue is a professional and Moulding's behaviour this weekend is not professional whether it was justified or not. Going on the podcast circuit and calling Bottcher a sociopath (in more words) will be remembered and while Moulding is the "victim" here it won't be helpful to him. His inconsistent story is also not helpful (months of problems but also a total shock? lol). No one is going to introduce that risk into their team for a guy who isn't bringing a true A+ game at third (he's probably been a solid A at his best, usually more around B+).

The actual truth remains unsaid and is left to our imaginations and Moulding's insinuations but it's clear Moulding has been bristling with the team and the front end picked their side. What else can we expect here? In hindsight they should've booted him in April and they could've found someone new for the fall. Enough people shopping around this summer with the Trials coming up who would've jumped at the chance. Meanwhile Bottcher screwed up the announcement but is smartly eating his breakfast since then; yes he's coming off as rehearsed and scripted but he's being criticized for not being better scripted on Friday. Airing the true issues with Moulding won't benefit Bottcher and would just make it worse. The truth of the pudding will come after the Brier: do Martin and Thiessen ditch Bottcher? If so then we'll know a lot. If not then I think we still know a lot.

In the end the only justice is winning. Jones has an Olympic Gold and two Scotties since booting Cathy O. Cathy O has...a loss to Homan in the Trials final in 2017 and I guess that Scotties round robin win over Jones. Kevin Koe looked crazy in 2014 when his team won without him but 2015-2020 saw him as the only person with continued success. If Bottcher wins again in the future this will have been justified; if Moulding does then the opposite is true. But Moulding was not an elite curler before Bottcher so we'll see if he is again. Personally I'm sad because I liked the team's chemistry; sad to know it was partly put-on lately.

Last edited by oliviertoisel on 12-06-21 at 09:08AM

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12-06-21 09:35AM
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jamcan
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
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quote:
Originally posted by oliviertoisel


...Moulding's behaviour this weekend is not professional whether it was justified or not. Going on the podcast circuit and calling Bottcher a sociopath (in more words) will be remembered and while Moulding is the "victim" here it won't be helpful to him. His inconsistent story is also not helpful (months of problems but also a total shock? lol). No one is going to introduce that risk into their team for a guy who isn't bringing a true A+ game at third (he's probably been a solid A at his best, usually more around B+).

The actual truth remains unsaid and is left to our imaginations and Moulding's insinuations but it's clear Moulding has been bristling with the team and the front end picked their side. What else can we expect here? In hindsight they should've booted him in April and they could've found someone new for the fall. Enough people shopping around this summer with the Trials coming up who would've jumped at the chance. Meanwhile Bottcher screwed up the announcement but is smartly eating his breakfast since then; yes he's coming off as rehearsed and scripted but he's being criticized for not being better scripted on Friday. Airing the true issues with Moulding won't benefit Bottcher and would just make it worse. The truth of the pudding will come after the Brier: do Martin and Thiessen ditch Bottcher? If so then we'll know a lot. If not then I think we still know a lot...



Gonna have to disagree here. Moulding never even came close to characterizing Bottcher as a sociopath-but that's your interpretation. He was straightforward, honest and didn't duck a single question.

Bottcher, on the other hand was extremely evasive, especially on questions regarding team finances. Plus, he never formally apologized for the Twitter gaff. Saying you 'regret' the statement is NOT saying you're sorry.

Curling teams are less sports teams and more like a rock group (pun intended). Bottcher attempted to weasel out of the question regarding money with a boring, long winded and intentionally distracting lecture on pro sports teams and how curling teams don't have owners and staff, blah, blah, blah.

The bottom line is he evaded an inquiry from a teammate-one with some knowledge of business-about taking a look at the books. When you, as a skip, do that you immediately place a seed of doubt in the mind of that player. And that seed only grows rotten fruit.

Curling teams are more like a rock band than a sports team. There's no huge roster or multiple substitutions. There's a constant close quarter dynamic of 4 individuals interacting together on every, single shot. Play a wrong note, the song is ruined. Make a mistake, the shot is missed and the game lost.

You're also in a small social structure with the same people for extended lengths of time and, just like a band, you can easily start getting under each other's skin. So it is incredibly important to avoid placing that tiny seed of doubt about something as important as money.

Bottcher has tarnished himself within the competitive community with this lack of foresite. Oh sure, there's players willing to take the risk for a shot at glory. But there's more who will hold back because of this.

Hopefully Bottcher has learned a painful lesson here. He's still young and talented with potential. But you can't continue with a question mark about money hanging over your head.

Next time just let the guy see the spreadsheet. And make a REAL apology.

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Last edited by jamcan on 12-06-21 at 09:39AM

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12-06-21 09:47AM
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oliviertoisel
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


Gonna have to disagree here. Moulding never even came close to characterizing Bottcher as a sociopath-but that's your interpretation. He was straightforward, honest and didn't duck a single question.



Moulding on his CBC interview said Bottcher "doesn't care about people". I guess sociopath isn't the right word because he also said Bottcher did this now to purposely deny him the chance to play a Brier in front of his son. Which is a truly incredible thing to say and at least implies Bottcher is a borderline evil person. (It's also nonsensical since Moulding himself said he's hated playing this fall and wanted to leave last spring but had to be convinced to stay.)

quote:
Bottcher, on the other hand was extremely evasive, especially on questions regarding team finances. Plus, he never formally apologized for the Twitter gaff. Saying you 'regret' the statement is NOT saying you're sorry.

Curling teams are less sports teams and more like a rock group (pun intended). Bottcher attempted to weasel out of the question regarding money with a boring, long winded and intentionally distracting lecture on pro sports teams and how curling teams don't have owners and staff, blah, blah, blah.

The bottom line is he evaded an inquiry from a teammate-one with some knowledge of business-about taking a look at the books. When you, as a skip, do that you immediately place a seed of doubt in the mind of that player. And that seed only grows rotten fruit.



Bottcher said their team splits everything evenly and always has. He also said he does not control the books alone. It could be a lie but he did answer the query as best as possible since the accusations were totally unspecific. Moudling meanwhile made insinuation but never said anything specific. He had "issues" and raised "concerns" during a group chat. What were they? Why won't' he say more? Maybe he thought he deserved more money because he travels farther. I find it rather incredible to believe Karrick Martin is on a team where the skip is cheating the other players given his father was one of the earliest adopters of clear financial metrics in the sport.
It's also wildly impossible to "win" these situations. Bottcher was going to get hell for cutting popular Moulding no matter what. The own goal press release just made it worse.

quote:
Bottcher has tarnished himself within the competitive community with this lack of foresite. Oh sure, there's players willing to take the risk for a shot at glory. But there's more who will hold back because of this.

Hopefully Bottcher has learned a painful lesson here. He's still young and talented with potential. But you can't continue with a question mark about money hanging over your head.

Next time just let the guy see the spreadsheet. And make a REAL apology.



We have no concept that Darren didn't see the spreadsheet. He won't be that specific. Why? Likely because the story is far more complex and nuanced.

I agree Bottcher tarnished himself but if the other two stay with him then they wll not have an issue finding a third to step in. I'd also bet there are a lot of skips out there thinking "there but by the grace of god..." He has more sympathy in the community than the keyboard warriors and gossip hounds (me included lol) know. Meanwhile Moulding is impossible to dislike and truly sympathetic but a lot of people are going to hesitate before bringing in someone who says these things post-breakup.

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12-06-21 10:17AM
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oliviertoisel
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The problem with Kennedy and Jacobs is they're probably the Brier favourites right now. Jacobs is probably leaning heavily to retirement so a final Brier would be appealing. Is three weeks under lockdown in China sitting behind the scoreboard worth foregoing that chance? Maybe. But no one is going to credit Kennedy or Jacobs as 2x gold medalists if they're just an alternate and don't really play. And this will not be a fun Olympics.

I expect Dunstone thinks he's got a strong chance at the Brier too. Gushue has played with Fry so he'd know if that works or not. Another option on that line is Adam Casery but I don't know if they're on good terms after Casey got booted for Nichols' return. Tanner Horgan makes a lot of sense but he probably thinks he has a good shot at the Ontario tankard. Epping might as well take it as he'll never make it on his own.

But I think the choice is obvious: Lott. He's exceptional, just needs to find the right team, and he's spared for Gushue before. They don't need more seniority with Thomas and Owchar going. They need energy and someone who can really play. If they want experience then Glenn Howard is there (0 reason to pick Scott over him); maybe another Howard is a lucky charm. Or Middaugh if he wasn't there with Hasselborg.

Last edited by oliviertoisel on 12-06-21 at 10:41AM

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12-06-21 12:36PM
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hogged again
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Will be interesting to see how fans respond at the Brier. Even in Alberta I expect Bottcher to get some boos, Moulding was popular everyman curler and the way this was handled was brutal. Moulding should also clam up at this point, he's said his piece and probably took it a bit too far.

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12-06-21 01:52PM
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Oh there will be booing. A lot of booing. A good minority of curling fans have personality issues and boo over anything they can find. This is catnip to them. Not to mention Bottcher is from, gasp, northern Alberta and the Brier is in Lethbridge. A perfect storm! Heacen help them if Moulding gets on a team and they have to play him.

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12-06-21 02:33PM
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Sure be interesting when Koe picks Moulding as their 5th.!!!!
Actually, should be an unwritten rule, Moulding is 5th player for whoever wins Alberta.

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12-06-21 06:02PM
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Maggie
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quote:
Originally posted by guido

Actually, should be an unwritten rule, Moulding is 5th player for whoever wins Alberta.



Why?

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12-06-21 06:39PM
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alex
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quote:
Originally posted by Maggie


Why?


So Moulding gets to the Brier he wanted to go to and had earned a spot in by winning last year.

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12-06-21 07:02PM
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guido
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quote:
Originally posted by Maggie


Why?



If nothing else, entertainment value.
But, I did say that tongue in cheek.

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12-06-21 07:08PM
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
Dm keeps it up he will have lots of time with his son — seems to wired up pretty tight - i certainly wouldnt curl with him - maybe shud take some time off and get his mouth under control -

And no one would boo bb

Cept a wacko poster or 2 - seem to have a few new ones - coincidence i think not



What Color is the sky???

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12-06-21 07:14PM
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decade
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quote:
Originally posted by Maggie


Why?



look who made the suggestion. Nuff said.

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12-06-21 07:30PM
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guido
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quote:
Originally posted by decade


look who made the suggestion. Nuff said.



What are you? Ten?

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12-06-21 07:32PM
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Maggie
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quote:
Originally posted by guido


If nothing else, entertainment value.
But, I did say that tongue in cheek.



LOL.. we need a sarcasm font. I guess that’s asking too much as we can’t get a functional ignore feature or the ability to report racist posts. Oh well.

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12-07-21 12:26AM
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Hack Weight
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Does any of the Jacobs might retire whispers come from a legitimate source? That strikes me as very odd.. he’s 36 years old not 46. Could easily have 10 strong years left, plus has an auto birth to every Brier. If he wants to retire then all power to him, but there’s no recent history of a premier skip retiring at that age.

Now if we are talking about the Kennedy “take a year or two off” retirement, then that’s maybe possible.

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12-07-21 05:47AM
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Loony
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
When JJ Jones cut Cathy O, she said Dawn & Jill (Officer) were in on it, too!
But like Bottcher - Jones was the CEO of her curling team, she makes the decisions and loads the lips of her minions (Dawn & Jill).
Jones believed Cathy O was holding her team back; too feisty behind the T, too argumentative on strategy decisions and really disruptive (against Jones) on most line & weight calls.
Only difference is that Cathy O stewed on the decision. She was obviously unhappy being cut from a Top 3 world team - but allowed her lips to be sealed, not going "Moulding".



You're so full of **** when it comes to anything about Jenn Jones. She never ever said Dawn and Jill were in on anything - she only said it was her own decision and that she was simply looking to improve her team at the start of a new Olympic quarter. The fact of the matter is that it actually was Dawn and Jill who were the reason for Jenn's decision. They were both going to quit the team unless Jenn got rid of Cathy. They were the ones refusing to play with her but Jenn never said that publicly, and she certainly never said the nonsense you claim about Cathy being feisty or argumentative.

And Cathy certainly didn't handle it calmly with her lips sealed!!!! She immediately went running to the curling reporter at the Sun who wrote a big long article full of Cathy's whining and crying and created a huge furor over it. In response, Jenn put out the one statement and then never ever talked to the press about it again while Cathy never shut up.

End result was all the championships Jenn won and credit for being one of the best curlers ever in Canada while Cathy's personality and disposition became obvious when she couldn't put together or find a team that would curl with her for a full year. Let's hope Brandon does as well as Jenn did.

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12-07-21 10:01AM
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oliviertoisel
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quote:
Originally posted by Hack Weight
Does any of the Jacobs might retire whispers come from a legitimate source? That strikes me as very odd.. he’s 36 years old not 46. Could easily have 10 strong years left, plus has an auto birth to every Brier. If he wants to retire then all power to him, but there’s no recent history of a premier skip retiring at that age.


It's been brought up a lot the last couple of years especially on the TSN broadcasts but I can't find a good news article on it. Not that he said he will retire but that he has grown tired of the commitment which is extra difficult given the amount of travel they have to do. I don't think it's a secret that the entire team is frustrated by the last 7 years and the lack of a major success since the Olympics (Brier and Trials final losses won't cut it). Kennedy coming in seemed to revitalize them but they still can't find the big win after getting booted from the 2020 Brier playoffs by Brad Gushue and now falling to him again. Oddly Gushue has had the 2015-2021 that many would've thought Jacobs was going to.

Anyway, they're a team that could've easily won 3 Briers in the past 7 years and instead they've won none. They'd be my pick for favorite this year but actually pulling it off is another thing. And if not...does he make the commitment to another 4 years? Is Kennedy staying? A lot of questions given the time and effort they put into their game and the logistical burden.

What I do not think is likely is either Brad or Marc going to the Olypmics as a Gushue fifth and forgoing a real Brier chance. But maybe the draw of the five rings really is that strong. And maybe they decide they can win provincials without one player who will then return for March.

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No one cares what you think, racist.

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Originally posted by toward Freaksa No one cares what you think, racist.
concur.

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